How did you guys recover your CD57 levels

Fwiw my CD57 levels have never recovered. They range from 9-21, even though I suspect I am no longer dealing with active Lyme.

I’m interested in any discussion on this as I think you’re the only other member who has reported results as low (lower I think) as mine. I know that many people report recovery in their CD57 levels, so I’m often perplexed as to why mine are so low still.

I technically test negative for lyme (antibodies to ospA only), bartonella, and babesia. I haven’t tested mycoplasma.

Post Edited (sandyfeet) : 1/17/2024 3:57:56 PM (GMT-8)

From tick born illness, yes, I think so. I still have problems with my sleep and pain in my hands but I now believe both are caused by high iron saturation levels as they both improve when I can lower that. I’m only just figuring that out so my levels are consistently high.

The sleep problems, in particular, I think are also due to taking herbs that mess with gaba and or CYP enzymes for years on end. I’m very sensitive to anything now.

I did go untreated for four years before I started treating however and I have endometriosis which is considered an autoimmune condition possibly linked to lower CD57 levels (not this low mind). It’s possible I’m one of the few whose levels never recover.

Astro is the only person here who’s been able to do substantial digging into the immune system. I think his levels also stayed a bit low but I can’t remember.

Have you tested other immune markers? I’d like to test CD4 and CD8 but haven’t.

I have no clue if my whole immune system is affected or just this one marker. I was only just starting to produce a mild response to colds when Covid started. Now I’ve been extremely cautious so I don’t know how my body would react to any infection. It’s a bit frustrating not knowing.

High iron levels mean most bacteria would be a real problem for me (except Lyme which prefers manganese). Viruses, I’ve got no clue right now.

Post Edited (sandyfeet) : 1/18/2024 5:06:59 AM (GMT-8)

about 5-6 years ago I did email some past members here after reading posts like yours in the history. You could search this places posts a lot better with the oldler website set-up.

Some of those who got back to me also still had low CD57, but did not do further immune testing. they probably just wanted to get on with their lives...not looking back. If they have more infection illness in the future (vs the average population), my guess is they might have other lower immune cells that they never bothered to test.

By the way, all these immune cells test im mentioning are covered by regular Drs and insurance. Some Drs helped me with these tests, but I became my health manager- not them. Its a fine line and a game I had to play with them. Some Drs find new information interesting, some get insulted. If they get insulted by patients with knowledge, they are not good Drs to begin with.

for what its worth i think the whole chronic Lyme condition can be best regarded as an immune system dysfunction.

ie in all people who get sick - something has happened to disrupt their immune system so that it loses control of the infectious agents which can then multiply to a much greater extent - and dysregulation then becomes the norm.

so all people with chronic lyme have immune dysfunction

NK cells are one particular group of white blood cells - known to be involved in fighting infections
it makes sense that these are often low in people with chronic lyme - because of the above dysregulation

also because there is evolutionary pressure for any infection that needs to survive long term in its host ( ie chronic bacterial infections and chronic protozoan infections - maybe fungi too) - to specifically dysregulate the part of the immune system of the host in ways that benefit the bacteria - ie to prevent the immune system from erradicating them before they can be passed on to a new host.

in this way i think the NK cell test and the CD57+ cell test are probably just being used as somewhat indicative surrogate markers for the health of the immune system - but they will not be perfect indicators - they are just a single cell type. whereas the immune system consists of probably 40 different cell types, maybe another 30 or more signalling chemicals and maybe 100 or more cell receptors - as well as the nervous system components - its a very complex thing - so no one marker can really do it justice.

in terms of immuno-suppressive or immune dysregulating bacterial mechanisms

-there is good research to show many of these long term infections agents can influence the hosts cytokine responses in ways that unbalance the immune system

-the chemicals that make up the biofilms they produce also have immune suppressive effects on the host

-many of these infections can also interfere with the normal programmed cell death pathways that are supposed trigger cells that are infected with intracellular pathogens to self destruct and thereby expose the bacteria inside to the immune system - and in doing so protect the bacteria from being destroyed by the host

-some bacteria like bartonella can infect white blood cells directly - again interfering with their proper functioning

-and borrelia have been shown to interfere with the germinal centres of the immune system in lymph nodes where immune cells are programmed to target infections - leading to problems making suitable antibodies

there are probably many more such mechanisms that we have yet to learn about - and many pathogens employ multiple mechanism concurrently

so a large element of treating chronic infection is reducing this dysregulating load on the body by gradually chipping away at the pathogen load and thereby gradually restoring the immune function

however - its not all about the infections - there are several other elements that can impact the immune systems functions - and in fact these may have been present or responsible for the pathogens getting a foot hold in the first place

- chronic stress is a classic example - from chronic work stress, trauma, major surgery, psychological problems etc etc is well known to lower immune function - in fact when we hear the common expression - died of a broken heart - for instance when the remaining partner dies shortly after a their life partner died - the usual cause for thsi is actually an infection - eg Pneumonia

-poor sleep is another - eg things like sleep apnoea - or simply poor routine or burning the candle at both ends. studies show even one of two nights poor sleep dramacalliy impact the ability of or immune systems to fight off infections - months or years of poor sleep can render us extremely vulnerable.

- gut issues are another powerful influence on our wider immune system - over 70% of our immune cells are located in the gut - they have to be there to deal with what is essentially a tube of material that is not part of us - but part of the outside world full of many bacteria and and passing right through the middle of us.
Due to immune dysregulation, in chronic illness, our bodies often lose proper control of this environment and the trillions of bacteria that live within it - and trying to manage the 2-3 pounds of bacteria and all the chemicals they produce that leak into the body through the permeable membrane of the gut wall can be a huge drain on the bodies immune system that prevents it from effectively fighting infections.
a person might have been able to eat anything the chose to before lyme and co - but after getting ill its common that they become reactive to foods or just notice their energy and aches and pains go up and down depending on what they eat. or maybe they don't notice , don't change their diet and just assume all their symptoms are driven directly by the infections. for most it seems to play a significant part.
i believe this is why AIP diets, GAPS Diets and Keto Diets often help - they essentially limit the amount of food for the bacteria (manly carbs and fibre ) and less bacteria in the gut to manage and less bacterial by products lowers the load on the immune system. This is why the best diet for someone with Lyme is not necessarily the same as the best diet for a healthy person - who should be able to tolerate more foods and can benefit from actively feeding their gut bacteria.

then there are other immune-suppressing chemical in our environments - mold is an obvious candidate - its well known that mold toxins are directly immunosuppressive - so much so that some of our most widely used immunosuppressive drugs - like the ones routinely given to organ transplant patients - and powerful enough to stop their immune systems attacking the foreign organ - are basically mold toxins.
i am sure its present as an issue in some lyme patients - but the testing for mold illness seems very problematic - with high proportions of normal controls returning high toxin levels - and many patients with high levels not seeming to benefit form mold based treatments.
for some patients - who react immediately they enter a moldy environment there seems little doubt they are being effected - but for others who do not have an obvious reaction is a very difficult are to navigate

but molds are not the only environmental factors impacting our immune systems - many synthetic chemicals are its now being discovered - disruptive to our hormonal systems.
this does not mean only our sexual hormones - the chemical signals used by our immune system are hormones also. our environment is becoming ever more crowded with such chemicals. many like "forever chemicals" survive and accumulate in the environment for many decades or longer and also bio-accumulate up the food chain. such chemicals can be found in food, clothing, appliances, furniture etc and in particular "fragrances" in cleaning products, cosmetics, personal care products etc contain many such substances that are not required to be even listed on the product label.
independent studies have found 100's of such chemicals in everyone they have tested - even those living in the most remote regions - and there is a lack of research to tell us what these aggregated effects of so many low level contaminants are on human health - as there is a complete lack of unaffected controls with which to compare. we can however be pretty certain these chemicals are interfering with the proper functioning of our immune systems to some extent.

my guess would be that each individual patient has some combination of the above contributing in different degrees to their ongoing illness through dysregulation of their immune system.

for some just attacking the infections aggressively is enough to allow the immune system to recover enough to finish the job of mopping up the remaining infection and returning to homeostasis

for others, especially those who have been ill for longer, its a case of unpicking what other factors are having most influence on their immune system and finding ways to address those in turn

if we look at the most widely respected LLMD's out there - they all have some version of this in their overall approach
Dr H has his 16 point MSIDS map of things to be checked / addressed
Dr J has his POEMS acronym - and his blocking points to be addressed

so in summary i don't think its specifically low NK cells or low CD57 that are the cause of ongoing illness - or the relevant target to specifically increase, in order to recover - more that these are just surrogate markers for immune disruption and the mission is to restore general proper regulated functioning of the immune function - rather than these cells specifically.

i think the most effective way to do this will vary for each patient - depending on what is doing the most dysregulating to their own immune system.

i just thought it might be helpful to have a general model for what we think is going on in the pathogenesis of chronic infections to help determine the best course of action.

i hope its of some help

WBF - thats great that you were able to correlate the time lines of mold exposure with plummeting cd57..

I had a similar experience with tracking elevated C4a and positive Candida albicans testing. It was an eye opener. But in my case, it did not affect / improve my CD57 .

Its complicated and different in all of us. We all slowly become health detectives.

https://www.hoffmancentre.com/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/lyme/everything_you_always_wanted_to_know_about_the_cd57.pdf

Bottom of the first page mentions that CD 57 test contest either T cells or natural killer cells.

This PDF is also possibly outdated, mentioning LabCorp as offering the CD 57 NK cell test. A couple years ago LabCorp discontinued it. If they offer it again, I do not know.

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Odd - the old ispot test for detecting lyme in your blood uses T cells. At least I know for sure that the old ispot test from Wisconsin USA was testing T cells.

I do not know if the similar test for Igenex or the place in Germany (both called Eli spot? ) test the same way. Maybe ispot test and Eli spot test actually are not the same?

For me, the biggest rise I’ve seen in my cd57 was when I was using Samento. Once I got to 20 drops a day my cd57 reached 100. The higher the dose of Samento, the higher the cd57 came back. Things that lowered it were stress and not getting enough sleep. Samento or Cats Claw is known for raising cd57 and T cell counts.

Astragalus also raises natural killer cell. When I was taking it, I always had more bands show up on Western blot than when I wasn’t taking it.

Once my CD57 went up to 100, it was the first time I started getting colds and my immune system was attacking viruses. Even though it took 2 months to get over the colds. When my level is under 100, I don’t get colds. My immune system is too weak to wage a response.

Therefore Samento, keeping stress low and getting at least 8 hours of sleep can raise cd57 levels.

Another interesting note for those who have any gene variant testing:

CTLA4 gene; (for those with double copies ) -in addition to the many auto immune issues it’s associated with, it can also lower T cell and CD 57 levels.