HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

This is a new one on me - lots of CIRS related threads at the mo - so adding it for discussion

Support Forums
>
Lyme Disease
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 1/19/2024 7:03 PM (GMT 0)
its from a better health guy podcast with a CIRS doctor - one of Richie Shoemakers followers

i'm not sure what to think - mold is a trick area to navigate - as the scientific research on the subject seems rather sparse - even compared to lyme and bart etc - and this new idea seems to be a step further into the unknown - but some people are reporting not responding to mold treatments - and i guess this could be a possible explanation - or on the other hand - just another deeper rabbit hole....

basic idea seems to be that CIRS can be triggered by bacteria that live in water damaged buildings - not just molds

https://link https://www.betterhealthguy.com/episode193

Key Takeaways:
What are the root causes of CIRS?
What is the difference between endotoxins and lipopolysaccharides?
Do Actinos or endotoxins trigger MCAS?
Should Actino and endotoxin testing always be done along with the ERMI?
Is there still a place for HLA-DR?
What has GENIE revealed about patients with CIRS?
How should Actino and endotoxin testing be evaluated?
Are soil habitat Actinos a contributor to CIRS?
What is the role of Actinos on the skin?
What drainpipe maintenance should be considered to reduce exposure to Actinos?
What steps should be taken to optimize our sleep location?
Do air filters play a role in reducing Actinos and endotoxins?
What is the role of Cholestyramine in dealing with Actinos and endotoxins?
Can Actinos be found in the blood?
Might there be a place for antimicrobial interventions in dealing with Actinos?
Posted 1/19/2024 7:07 PM (GMT 0)
I would take it even a step further an say CIRS is a condition people can develop from various illnesses like mold exposure, borrelia, bartonella, chlamydia, other toxins, maybe even viral stuff.

as its name says its a chronic inflammatory response of the body reacting to different stuff that shouldnt belong there.

btw: the link is broken
Posted 1/19/2024 7:32 PM (GMT 0)
i tend to agree - this guy is just adding one to the list that i had not heard mentioned before - so that was the reason for posting

apologies - the forum software did something random to the link - try this https://tinyurl.com/yqlp2j7d
Posted 1/19/2024 11:22 PM (GMT 0)
I will listen to this later on, but I just wanted to make a comment. CIRS has never been just about mold. It has always been about multiple biotoxins - toxins produced by biological organisms.

Shoemaker first started down this rabbit hole when patients in his community suddenly developed similar symptoms and no one knew why. It turned out to be Pfiesteria.
Posted 1/20/2024 1:54 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you Garzie.
Posted 1/20/2024 1:58 AM (GMT 0)
I found this part interesting:

-------------------
What happens with biotoxin, ribotoxin, but particularly Actino is that you block the voltage-dependent anion channel. You block the tunnel from the cell jelly into the mitochondrial fire pit. Now you're stuck manufacturing energy outside of the mitochondria, which is wildly ineffective. For that same six-carbon glucose, you make 8 ATP, plus lactic acid buildup as a waste product. In highfalutin Boulder triathletes, that's called bonking, right? “I can't run another step. I've had lactic threshold.” The CIRS patient gets that walking to the mailbox. What Cholestyramine Welchol does is it literally is an excavator with a dump truck that removes the ribotoxin, biotoxin, from the voltage-dependent anion channel, so that pyruvate can get into the mitochondrial fire pit again. That stuck pyruvate, two-pyruvate or one glucose in the cytosol is molecular hypometabolism. That's what it is. It's, I can't get this into the mitochondrial fire pit to make 33 to 35 units of energy.
-------------------
Posted 1/20/2024 7:30 PM (GMT 0)

WalkingbyFaith said...
I will listen to this later on, but I just wanted to make a comment. CIRS has never been just about mold. It has always been about multiple biotoxins - toxins produced by biological organisms.

Shoemaker first started down this rabbit hole when patients in his community suddenly developed similar symptoms and no one knew why. It turned out to be Pfiesteria.

yep - that was my understanding also

i had understood other organisms could cause it - eg infections - and as you mention exposure toxic algae

but what was new to me here is that this is a bacteria that lives in places mold does - ie in our buildings - and doesn't need to actually infect people to make them sick - but apparently releases toxins into the air - much as molds do

i thought this was the relevant bit as it seems people could do an ERMI test for mold on their home - and have it come back clear - but that would not detect these bacteria that may be present - and could, according to this Dr, be causing illness.

on the one hand it could be an explanation for why some people cannot get well - even though the have clear mold tests on their home - on the other i worry a bit that this is rather deep down the CIRS rabbit hole - and that is a rabbit hole that seems to just go on forever - and seems to have the potential to encourage people to just keep going deeper - if you see what i mean

for some its so obvious that its not even a question - eg they react immediately and dramatically in moldy environments - but what about the ones who don't- but the CIRS Dr says "oh, well it must be Actinomyces then"
Posted 1/20/2024 8:36 PM (GMT 0)
See what you're trying to say garzie.

I think the Problem is that the CIRS treatment is Long and Takes a Lot of steps and a Lot of products.

Cholestyramine/Ocra , lipids , other binders, VIP nasal Spray, CoQ10, Boswellia, the list is endless.

I have Looked extensively into the "Mold" CIRS and they claim you can Test it and See If its that.

They claim If you have:
- Low MSH
- high C4a
- high tgf Beta
- high mmp-9
- Low vegf

That this Profile is pointing into the CIRS direction. I think the Problem is that those are all inflammation Markers that can also be elevated or altered in other issues.

Nonetheless I think mold can cause a Lot of health issues and looking into "moldy" CIRS isnt a big issue aslong as you stay critical and dont follows a train that doesnt Help you.

I Had to Look alternatively aswell outside of the chronic lyme Community sine antibiotics have had No Major effect on me. Now i tend think they Just got resistent and the experience on TA-1 actually was a herx and showed me how my immune system was If it wasnt supressed.

Complex as shieet....

I will try parts of the CIRS treatment Just to See how it goes. For example i have Looked into ocra extract and the Mold CIRS Community Claims IT binds to the toxins and gets them Out of the Body. Even If it doesn't, ocra is good at lowering LDL (Bad cholsterol) and rich in fiber, so nothing much to mess Up Here. Plus, since i am also going down the peptide rabbit hole currently why Not try VIP Peptide aswell....

Keep you Guys tuned about my Experiments lol
Posted 1/20/2024 9:29 PM (GMT 0)
The ERMI test that Mycometrics does has the option to test for actinomycetes in addition to the molds.
Posted 1/21/2024 4:23 PM (GMT 0)
Funny, I just listened to this after being told my CIRS is likely actinomyces by my doctor. Funny enough, my neuroquant is exactly as this guy describes an actino footprint looking- with all 4 nucleic atrophied.
I have to now get the envirobiomedics mold and actinomyces home tests and go back to spamming welchol until I can figure it out.
Posted 1/21/2024 6:10 PM (GMT 0)
Lots of good dialog here. One thing that came into my mind was I tend to see CIRS now as a more primitive shot at explaining what Dr. Naviaux's work at UCSD around Cell Danger Response explains in a more comprehensive fashion, acknowledging wide range of multifactorial causes.

CSM and welchol aren't nearly as broad spectrum as shoemaker originally made them out to be. But Naviaux acknowledges the concept of toxins causing this change in cellular activity and that removing the toxin is necessary for the healing process.

I think we should also keep in mind placebo in these cases. Such a confident doctor saying xyz is your answer. And that's great for patients that works for. But what happens when it doesn't? The doctor essentially blames your environment and puts that responsibility back onto the already stressed patient. This skews your limbic system into a more fight or flight mode around what could be causing issues. Like a reverse placebo effect,. Down the rabbit whole as Grazie said. DNRS teaches the exact opposite of this thinking.

Obviously we have people who need to address water damage etc. different than others. And these areas COULD be key pieces. I just feel CIRS doctors tend to be a bit dogmatic, based on shoemakers teachings. Which aren't useless.. but perhaps a bit outdated.
Posted 1/23/2024 10:48 PM (GMT 0)

loski01 said...
Lots of good dialog here. One thing that came into my mind was I tend to see CIRS now as a more primitive shot at explaining what Dr. Naviaux's work at UCSD around Cell Danger Response explains in a more comprehensive fashion, acknowledging wide range of multifactorial causes.

CSM and welchol aren't nearly as broad spectrum as shoemaker originally made them out to be. But Naviaux acknowledges the concept of toxins causing this change in cellular activity and that removing the toxin is necessary for the healing process.

I think we should also keep in mind placebo in these cases. Such a confident doctor saying xyz is your answer. And that's great for patients that works for. But what happens when it doesn't? The doctor essentially blames your environment and puts that responsibility back onto the already stressed patient. This skews your limbic system into a more fight or flight mode around what could be causing issues. Like a reverse placebo effect,. Down the rabbit whole as Grazie said. DNRS teaches the exact opposite of this thinking.

Obviously we have people who need to address water damage etc. different than others. And these areas COULD be key pieces. I just feel CIRS doctors tend to be a bit dogmatic, based on shoemakers teachings. Which aren't useless.. but perhaps a bit outdated.

Do we know if Welchol and CSM bind the endotoxins from other bacteria such as actinomyces?
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply