Bioflim Bartonella

Dear friends,

Little Bee, yes please write your email I will contact you. I m also from EU so we can easily talk or chat since the time zone is same.

Garzie, thank you very much for your kind clarification and sharing your experiences.

Have you observed an effect of sequence of taking anti - biofilm agents and Abx, eg. can one say it is more effective to take first anti biofilms like Xylitol, Lumbro, Oreg.oil etc and after that taking Abx or vice versa?

In general with Bart antibodies serology test, if common test is IgG positive, then there is no sense of taking Western blot or PCR - in order to confirm positivity, no? Moreover with regards to that kind positivity, if titter is higher, it means lymf or neuroinfection is suspected, say neurobart. For example I had titter 320, but doctor in the hospital, infectology, did not give me any interpretation. From symptoms I nevertheless assume it must neurological too.

My last question or remark is indirect indication from CBC, I guess If my current working hypothesis is correct then after 3-4 weeks of medication, my anemia level should improve, at least slighthly, by taking into consideration some of the active Bart bacteria have been removed by 3-combination of Abx..

Thank you, best wishes, and good luck to all
B

doses for xylitol are usually in the range 8-10g a day on an empty stomach

but i started at 1g 2x a day and still had a powerful effect -

it is taken only while taking antibiotics / other strong antimicrobial combinations at the same time - the idea being that when breaking up biofilms - you want antimicrobials to be in the system at the same time to kill the bacteria that are released into circulation

so for instance Dr J uses xylitol 1 week in 3 or 1 week in 4 - in the same weeks antibiotics are taken

testing is a complex subject

i general because each method has its own distinct features and shortcomings - a mechanism that can cause a false negative with one technology does not necessarily mean a false negative via another technology - as they are very different

as an example - in the case of bartonella - although serology and PCR may both offer below 50% sensitivity - this is not the same as suggesting that both tests will miss the same 50 cases out of 100 infected persons tested
in fact in the case of bartonella there is some evidence to suggest that those that are infected but seronegative ( false negative via serological methods - such as ELISA ) are more likely to test positive via PCR.

this is a surprising finding - as typically researchers would normally expect good correlation between positive and negative results on the same sample via different test technologies - whereas research via Breischwerdts et al ( the most respected researcher studying bartonella ) has shown that there is dramatic asymmetry between PCR and serologic methods.

western blots and multi-species western blots are a slightly different case again - here although also using serology technology - multiple antigens are used in a multiplex test - so in effect the test looks for many bartonella associated antibodies at once and aims to differentiate infected from uninfected hosts from the pattern that emerges
the test is less binary - because there are now many results possible.
but its sensitivity goes up - because it has more chances to detect a bartonella associated antibody.
Igenex has a multispecies bartonella western blot that is probably reasonably sensitive ( definitely more sensitive than standard ELISA)

however, if a person has tested positive for bartonella in the past - eg via serologic methods - unfortunately there is little point in testing further with serologic methods - as that persons body may continue to produce antibodies for years to come - whether infection is present or not.
in essence serology mainly just tells us that a person has been exposed to an organism at some point in the past and thier immune system has reacted to it.
the crude rules of thumb about IgM being acute infection and IgG being chronic or past infection are based on a raft of assumptions that do not reliably hold true for chronic infections with stealth pathogens

i am not aware of any research that demonstrates an association between titre levels and neurobartonellosis
in fact i would expect that actual infection counts are not necessarily a good indicator of symptomology
after all, titres can be non existent in some of the very sickest people.

in general i would expect anaemia - if caused by bartonella alone to start to normalise after 1-2 months of effective treatment
the difficulty may be that effective treatment for chronic bartonella is known to be very hard to achieve - esp in short time frames
1 or 2 months of even multiple combination antibiotics may not move the needle very much.

red blood cells also have a life of around 90 days - so it could take longer for new ones to fully repopulate
and other causes of anaemia - such as auto-immunity, iron or folate deficiencies would need to be ruled out.
normal week to week fluctuations of values on CBC will also obscure the signal - one will need multiple tests over different time points to reliably define a trend vs apparent trend/snapshot effect.

for more information on testing i would suggest reading primary sources such as the work of Breischwerdts et al - most of his teams papers are available on PubMed

i think you have the option to tick a box that says "display email on all my posts "
so you may have ticked that box

there are no rules against it - is just generally not thought to be a good idea to publish your email openly on forums - because it can leave you open to phishing, junk email etc

that's why there is also the option to just show the address to other members in your profile page - rather than in posts ( just untick the box )

if its a throwaway email address - its less of an issue

Garzie do you take the xylitol on a spoon and eat it or mix it with a drink? I think I might try it as I bake it into cookies but I think I’m only having around 1g per week

Bhava, I have also sent you email.

PinkBlossom, I took it with yogurt and had a very powerfull effect. Also scary I must add.

Garzie, then Dr J says take one week ABX with xilitol, then off ABX and off xilitol three weeks?

Thanks all.

hi Bhava

we do not have good human clinical trials for this - but based on how long lasting the herx reactions from biofilm agent are - i would say we can be fairly confident that the effects of biofilm agents build up gradually over hours and days and remain for a while - and that this means we do not need to worry about timing by the hour

as to how much or how many bactericidal antibiotics are enough -
i dong think there is a specific answer as the entire scenario of what is going on when a person takes an antibiotic is rather complex
we are not just sacks of water that antibiotics diffuse through and kill any microbe present
we are complex organism with immune systems
even with multiple antibiotics - the immune system is still doing most of the work
the antibiotics just move the balance a little in favour of the host vs the pathogen
or that's the idea
this is why bacteriostatic antibiotics still work well for many infections
and why AIDS patients still die of common infections despite huge doses of multiple antibiotics
with bartonella and lyme etc the immune system is suppressed - and the microbes are hard to eradicate so treatment durations with current drugs is long - even if used in combinations

some people do get better without any antibiotics / or clear the infections without ever knowing
others become chronically ill and find treatment very slow / difficult
2 or more bactericidal antibiotics that work by separate mechanism are probably a good idea in these cases
but this always has to be balanced by what the host can tolerate - both in terms of daily living vs herx reactions - and also things like liver or kidney function / drug reactions
expect long treatment durations - the studies we do have indicate 2 years or more is normal - even if you do everything right
its likely the case that the less work the hosts immune system is doing the more work the antibiotics need to do - and that more antibiotics are needed in these tougher cases

yes, taking anti-biofilm agents alongside antimicrobials can certainly increase herx symptoms you experience and result in symptoms such as head pressure or headaches - in general i find all normal herx signs increase - and also some new ones arise - in my case often a painful stiffness in my muscles when extending my arms.

i hope its of some help

I haven’t read all the posts.

I took xylitol in a glass of water.

And I had to be near a bathroom….

When I have time and remember I will look at my schedule - for the Bartonella/Persisters protocol

thank you for the responses about xylitol garzie and girlie! very helpful

I found some info - antibiotic schedule

My first schedule was for Babesia.
I did two cycles.
The schedule says “Cycle 2 only: days 1-7 xylitol 1/2 tsp plus lactoferrin 250 mg week 1 only.
This was with the abx and Mepron.
I did two cycles:
Cycle1: 2 weeks on/1 week off
Cycle2: 2 weeks on/2 weeks off

I also took xylitol and lactoferrin on the Bart/Persisters protocol.
Days 1-7

Dear Garzie, thank you for your answer.
There seems to be various pulsing protocols, some say to suspend for 4 days, some for 7 days, some even for 10 days and then resuming. I m not sure which is kind of generally accepted approach, if there is such thing...
Best regarads
B

Dear Garzie,

thank you for your kind answer and explanation. So in the off-period of antibiotics, one is still continuing with herbs - like Cats Clow, Jap.Knotweed, Andrographis, Sida Acuta, Houituinya, Cryptolepis etc, in general what more boosts immune system and vitality (including vitamins and stuff like Astragalus, Ashwagandha, Zhenshen) - while suspending Abx and anti-biofilm agents such as Lumbrokinasse, Oregano oil, NAC etc - is it right understanding?

Best wishes and good luck
B

Dear Garzie,

thank you, yes again very helpful. I have understood that also Cryptolepis and other hers that are anti-bacterial need to be suspended in the off period. So from common lyme herbs, does one take only cats claw, j.knowteed, andrograhpis or similiar immune-modulation and supportive herbs like astragalus etc? Is it correct?

Yes, that study in petris dishes and its result are very interesting. But I guess in vivo it is again different and probably most people recovered after combined abx therapy rather than only pulsing mono-abx. But I guess I understand the principle behind it. If bacteria feel safe and and are proliferating, they expose themselves and become more vulnerable, that can roughly be the idea, right?

good luck, best wishes, B

Dear Garzie,

thank you for your explanation. It is not related topic, but how about Collagen supplementation? Is it true that borrelia bacterium is feeding on collagen? Does it have any sense to supplement it apart from food like eggs, chicken, berries etc?
All the best, B