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MCAS confirmed, TH17 in the toilet?

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Posted 5/16/2024 1:28 PM (GMT 0)
Good news is my MCAS is kinda confirmed-ish because my Histamine was found to be elevated.

What suprised me as hell is that the IL-4 (th2) and IL-17 (th17) answers were not good. tnf-alpha also elevated,

watchu think?

https://ibb.co/tdffryt
Posted 5/16/2024 2:40 PM (GMT 0)
I have read:
- Reduce IL-17 with astragalus
- Reduce TNF alpha with andrographis, cordyceps, houttuynia, and Baikal skullcap

Sounds like you still have inflammation happening. IL-4, IL-7, TNF alpha, and histamine are all commonly raised with tick-borne infections (as well as with long COVID).

Is this the first time these tests have been done for you? I don't think I've ever had these run aside from histamine (which was always normal for me, despite evident MCAS).
Posted 5/16/2024 2:53 PM (GMT 0)
thanks for joining the thing is i want to raise th17(IL17) not reduce it, its already very low.

the andrographis seems very helpful thank you smile


i have done this test before but it was a very bad lab. i cant use it for reference

IL-4 is also low. i would like to try and correct il-4 and il-17 as i move on treating smile
Posted 5/16/2024 4:09 PM (GMT 0)
hi Blazer
which lab was this from IMD berlin maybe ?

i thought high IL-17 was associated with auto-immunity - but its a while since i dug into it

the TNF-a and Histamine are not far above the ref range limits - so i am not sure how much i would read into those ( some of these markers can end up 100x the normal range in extreme conditions - so interpretation needs to be done accordingly)

in general it looks like you have less than ideal TH2 response - ie lower adaptive immunity - which would correlate with being unable to clear chronic infections
Posted 5/16/2024 4:43 PM (GMT 0)
The Lab Said that the Low il-17 also correlates with chronic infections so maybe there is where my inability to clear bartonella comes from.

Its very complicated and rainy Said to me i should Stop digging so much in this mud, and i mean - He might be correct, after all I highly respect His oppinion, but its Just so damn interesting! Haha

Yes it was from IMD Berlin. For whats worth the reishi i Take May effect th2 since its boosting th1 immunity.

Thanks for your thoughts garzie i appreciate it
Posted 5/16/2024 4:55 PM (GMT 0)
i am with you on the digging

i know where Rainy is coming from

its like trying to make the full jigsaw puzzle when science itself only has less than half of the pieces - so there are often more questions than answers - lots of grey areas - and very hard to find certainty

but on the other hand - we humans have a propensity for spotting patterns and making sense of things without all of the data - so i feel we can at least hope to steer our ship in a better than random direction if we at least gather what data points we can.

there will still be a lot of trial and error

but even if it just helps us improve our batting average just a little in terms of choosing which things to try - then we will have improved our chances - and in the end - if that's all we can do - so be it

for some that small improvement is not worth the effort
and for others its simply not possible to do it any other way as, to not dig in would feel like a missed opportunity.

so, in the end its a matter of preference.

one thing i have learned over the years is to not lend to much weight to any one result - in forming the overall picture - but to look for patterns that make sense and are consistent at a larger scale.
this helps to avoid going too deep down less than fruitful rabbit holes
Posted 5/16/2024 5:18 PM (GMT 0)
I've heared a biologist Talk about the pattern recognition being actually one of the few Things that Set us appart from animals and let us build this society.

Interesting thoughts garzie, Cheers smile
Posted 5/18/2024 2:42 PM (GMT 0)
Could it be possible that chronic stimulation of Th17 has exhausted it? This is thought to potentially happen in ME/CFS.

Surveying the Metabolic and Dysfunctional Profiles of T Cells and NK Cells in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10418326/
Posted 5/18/2024 4:08 PM (GMT 0)

MichiganLymie said...
Could it be possible that chronic stimulation of Th17 has exhausted it? This is thought to potentially happen in ME/CFS.

Surveying the Metabolic and Dysfunctional Profiles of T Cells and NK Cells in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10418326/

Thats actually a very good Point! Thanks
Posted 5/18/2024 6:51 PM (GMT 0)
I’m guessing this is why most people get 80 to 90% (like myself) improved and just leave it as that.

Going further with what this post is about is a lot more guessing, a lot more missing puzzle pieces, and way more mental work than just killing off the critters!

That said, hopefully this stuff will be better understood someday and maybe a little more common to treat.

—————————-

It would certainly be better if there were more regional type functional doctors that understood in-depth things like this.

However, even though they’ve raised their hourly cost after Covid, they aren’t any more smarter than they used to be, and they really don’t understand these things. Kind of sad fact.

Post Edited (astroman) : 5/18/2024 12:54:04 PM (GMT-8)

Posted 5/18/2024 11:43 PM (GMT 0)
Long COVID is bringing attention to similar conditions, including Lyme and ME/CFS. Long COVID research has turned up MCAS, micro clotting, leaky blood brain barrier, and dysautonomia. Reservoirs of the COVID-19 virus persist in the bodies of some, but not all, people who have long COVID.

This probably won't help any of us any time soon, but it's an example of the increased attention being brought to bear on Lyme and ME/CFS after long COVID caught the attention of researchers. (This one has long COVID herself.)

Tackling long-haul diseases

Long-haul covid and chronic Lyme disease are surprisingly similar. MIT immunoengineer Mikki Tal is on the case.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/02/28/1087617/tackling-long-haul-diseases/

I understand the need to keep looking for more information. The way I see it is that our thoughts are like ants sometimes, crawling and looking for breadcrumb trails and pheromone trails. Most of our trails will grow cold and become abandoned, but as we crawl, we learn the map. And sometimes we find the hot trails that lead to the mother lodes. It happens occasionally.
Posted 5/19/2024 4:26 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you for the very kind words Blazer 🙂.

Just to expand on my concern when I said that it might be best to stop digging into this mud so much. I see it the same way as astroman who sums it up really nicely here:

"[...] and way more mental work than just killing off the critters!"

I should add to this that in my opinion there's nothing inherently wrong with digging into this, I do that myself too.

But what I was worried about is that it stops you from starting the treatment that you need. So while I believe it's fine to somewhat dig into this, I think it's important to also be treating the Lyme and co-infections.

This is why I am so happy to hear that you started taking the herbs. You are clearly a very intelligent (and kind) person and I truly believe that you will get better.
Posted 5/19/2024 6:44 AM (GMT 0)

RainyCloud said...
Thank you for the very kind words Blazer 🙂.

Of course man smile Users like you, garzie, astroman, girlie, all have guided my way since arriving here. I little thankfulness isnt to much I'd say smile

Just to expand on my concern when I said that it might be best to stop digging into this mud so much. I see it the same way as astroman who sums it up really nicely here:

"[...] and way more mental work than just killing off the critters!"

I should add to this that in my opinion there's nothing inherently wrong with digging into this, I do that myself too.
Coalminers! Haha

But what I was worried about is that it stops you from starting the treatment that you need. So while I believe it's fine to somewhat dig into this, I think it's important to also be treating the Lyme and co-infections.
This is why I am so happy to hear that you started taking the herbs. You are clearly a very intelligent (and kind) person and I truly believe that you will get better.
Exactly, no needs to worry about that. I am currently doing the Cryptolepis, the Houttuynia, the Lactoferrin and the Reishi. I will add andrographis on top too because i read lots of good stuff about it + buhner mentioned it too

Also, thanks for the compliments, I really appreciate it.

Posted 5/19/2024 8:41 PM (GMT 0)
Sounds great Blazer! smile
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