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What is the official process of voicing disagreement with a mod's decision on HealingWell?

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Posted 6/12/2024 7:16 PM (GMT 0)
Would love to know the official stance on this. Thanks!
Posted 6/12/2024 7:30 PM (GMT 0)
I thought this was a place we helped people who are struggling to live, not a placed where we punished them and those who tried to help them.
Posted 6/12/2024 8:05 PM (GMT 0)
i don't think there is a process as such

i flagged the overzealous moderation to Admin - using the alert Admin button

just pointing out that the OP was asking for support - and received support - no need or purpose served by locking the thread in my view.

i also suggested that in future moderators privileges be restricted to the forums they serve - to avoid random mods hopping on a different forum - doing something unnecessary or contentious, without even consulting the regular mods of that board, and disappearing again.

i wouldn't dream of going over to another forum and start locking threads there

alas - i am not sure if its read or acted upon
Posted 6/12/2024 8:10 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you Garzie!

Just to clarify, the disagreement in question is not related to you (Garzie), saraeli or Girlie.
Posted 6/12/2024 10:35 PM (GMT 0)
I don't think the administrators of this site are likely to reply to this, unfortunately. Even the mods hear little to nothing from them, even when they reach out directly, so unfortunately we have no recourse these days when a mod from a different forum wants to impose their will here - at least no recourse I'm aware of.
Posted 6/13/2024 12:18 AM (GMT 0)
Do you think there's any chance the mods can make a rule among themselves to not moderate forums other than their own? I know without the admin this is not possible to do in terms of permissions, but even as an agreement it would help.
Posted 6/13/2024 9:48 AM (GMT 0)

Bailey said...
Do you think there's any chance the mods can make a rule among themselves to not moderate forums other than their own? I know without the admin this is not possible to do in terms of permissions, but even as an agreement it would help.

The problem with that is that there is a lot of spam posters that come on these forums and we have to delete the spam. Moderators of their forums are not always available to do that so all the moderators, if they see a spammer, go to that forum and delete the spam. I will start a thread in our Moderator forum about your suggestion.
Posted 6/13/2024 11:03 AM (GMT 0)
Dear Lyme Forum Members:

First of all, I hope you will forgive a post from another outside-Lyme mod; I'm not locking anything and I come in peace.

Secondly, my sincere sympathy to those of you who have this disease. I have a cousin who has been afflicted with Lyme for years with little to no relief. I have encouraged him to join your forum to no avail. I lurk here occasionally to try to find helpful information to pass on.

Finally, I'll try to answer the question posed by RainyCloud, i.e. how to voice disagreement with a moderators decision. There are multiple ways:
1. Post a respectful statement of disagreement citing facts as to why you think the moderator is wrong. Referring to a moderator (or any member) by questioning their reading comprehension, saying they are dumb, disgusting or stupid or suggesting a finger up the bum are neither helpful comments nor persuasive. They are also incidentally clearly in violation of HW rules and should have been deleted.
2. One of your forum moderators can simply override the outside moderator by expressing disagreement and unlocking the locked thread. The thread in question here was locked for a day and your moderators chose not to unlock it.
3. Encourage your moderators to visit the moderator forum and express their opinions. The topic in question was discussed in a mod thread for two days. One of your moderators posted on the thread but did not express disagreement with the lock.
4. Contact the site owner with your complaints. This may be the least effective of the methods since our owners are not very responsive but at least you're on the record with your concerns.

Hope this is helpful.

Regards,

Jim aka Tudpock18
Prostate Cancer Moderator

P.S. BTW, the moderator who did lock the thread did so with good intentions believing it to be in the best interest of the forum and lacking any disagreement from your Lyme mods. So please consider that in your criticism.
Posted 6/13/2024 11:05 AM (GMT 0)
for information - not all moderators have access to the moderators forum

i am not able to access it for instance

moderators have no way of knowing what is being discussed in a restricted forum they cannot access

saying the lyme moderators didn't take part in such a discussion implies they had an option to do so.

even if they had access, having a discussion there - and assuming lyme forum moderators would see it - and then assuming if they had an issue with it they would be able to express it there - is just such an obviously problematic process.

everyone here is dealing with a serious life altering illness, most of us are struggling to get through every day and complete all of our basic obligations - we volunteer to help out here as a way of helping the community, but we have many competing demands on our limited time and energy.
so, even if we did have access - we do not necessarily have the time or energy to monitor another forum - just in case its discussing something we should be aware of.

however, all of our email addresses are listed in our profiles

so, why not simply reach out?
Posted 6/13/2024 11:15 AM (GMT 0)
Garzie, yeah...reaching out with an email was certainly an option that could have been taken. However, at least one of the Lyme mods did take part in the mod discussion and did not express any concerns about the lock. Another of your mods can also access the mod forum and did so after the fact. So two of your three mods do have access to the moderator forum.

If you don't have full mod powers I suggest you contact the CEO of the company and request that authority. I have his email address and will gladly provide it to you. While the routine admin matters seem to lack response, any correspondence I have had with him has been positive and responsive. Sometimes we have to take the initiative.

Jim

P.S. The discussion continues in the mod forum. For Lyme moderators who do have access to this you may want to check in and express your opinions.
Posted 6/13/2024 12:52 PM (GMT 0)
Regardless of whether the OP violated forum rules, why wouldn't he/she be warned first? To suddenly lock down a thread without warning comes across like flying off the handle. It has a very arbitrary feel.

Clearly this is a gray area, yet it was handled rudely as if it were obvious and black-and-white and as if the OP and everybody who replied to the OP were being bad children.

Whatever the rules may be, there are some communication problems going on. Polite, reasonable adults don't treat each other that way. It's not respectful to other people. And it's insensitive.
Posted 6/13/2024 1:20 PM (GMT 0)

MichiganLymie said...
Regardless of whether the OP violated forum rules, why wouldn't he/she be warned first? To suddenly lock down a thread without warning comes across like flying off the handle. It has a very arbitrary feel.

Clearly this is a gray area, yet it was handled rudely as if it were obvious and black-and-white and as if the OP and everybody who replied to the OP were being bad children.

Whatever the rules may be, there are some communication problems going on. Polite, reasonable adults don't treat each other that way. It's not respectful to other people. And it's insensitive.

I might have handled this situation insensitively, and if I did I apologize but I do not apologize for locking the thread. As far as reasonable adults go, no matter what action a moderator takes, it doesn't give the posters a right to bash that moderator. So, yea, adults shouldn't treat each other that way.
Posted 6/13/2024 1:36 PM (GMT 0)
That was a DARVO-style response. (Deny Accusation Reverse Victim and Offender)
Posted 6/13/2024 1:50 PM (GMT 0)
Agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
Posted 6/13/2024 2:15 PM (GMT 0)
First of all thank you to whoever unlocked the threads.

Tudpock18, I'm sorry to hear about your cousin and hope he or she will feel comfortable to join the forum. I hope your cancer treatment is going well. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

As for the spam bot problem, that's an easy fix. You just say moderators are restricted to their own forums exception to remove spam bots.

Michelejc, I understand and appreciate you had good intentions with your actions. I also appreciate that as this discussion has continued your actions have been more measured. The reason I'm advocating for lyme moderators and not other moderators to manage Lyme forums (except in the case of spam bots) is I think understanding the Lyme community better would have helped with a more nuanced approach.

I don't know much about the cancer or UC communities but the Lyme disease has this special dimension to the illness where you don't have to deal just with the physical degrading of your body, but the fact that society rejects the notion that your illness even exists. Societal messages of "you are not worthy of being helped," "you're too inconvenient to be worth keeping alive," "your existence is just a drain on society," is expressed in words, action, and inaction constantly and it permeates medical professionals, friends, and families we all interact with. Any doctors who disagree and try to help us are typically hunted down by large powerful entities, so it's a general rule we don't post their names here to protect them.

I believe the majority of those who come to this Lyme forum, come because they are viciously fighting these societal messages and/or trying to help others to do so. We care for each other because we often find ourselves in the awful place of feeling like we're dying physically and are cut off from anyone who cares, much less tries to help. This extreme loneliness in the midst of agony drives us online to at least find sympathy among strangers we meet online, to find people who will fight for us, and not against us as we cry in pain. We were in the middle of trying to offer this emotional support to destiny when you locked the discussion.

To a number of us, this felt like we had gathered around a person screaming in pain to comfort them and see what could be done, then a stranger came in duct taped the mouth of the screaming sufferer shut, forced us all to leave the room, then left themself and locked the sufferer in the room alone. I understand you thought you were helping, but it stepped on a very raw spot for our community who are constantly being told, "you're not worthy of being helped," and "you're not acceptable person unless you pretend you're not suffering" to see one of our fellow sufferers gagged and isolated while they were screaming in pain.

The 3 Lyme moderators I know of, are all aware of this aspect of the illness, and I do believe would have acted with more sensitivity because of it. Hence I really believe moderation would be better conducted largely by moderators appointed to the specific forums. Having spam deletion as an exception is fine.
Posted 6/13/2024 2:20 PM (GMT 0)

Bailey said...
First of all thank you to whoever unlocked the threads.

Tudpock18, I'm sorry to hear about your cousin and hope he or she will feel comfortable to join the forum. I hope your cancer treatment is going well. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

As for the spam bot problem, that's an easy fix. You just say moderators are restricted to their own forums exception to remove spam bots.

Michelejc, I understand and appreciate you had good intentions with your actions. I also appreciate that as this discussion has continued your actions have been more measured. The reason I'm advocating for lyme moderators and not other moderators to manage Lyme forums (except in the case of spam bots) is I think understanding the Lyme community better would have helped with a more nuanced approach.

I don't know much about the cancer or UC communities but the Lyme disease has this special dimension to the illness where you don't have to deal just with the physical degrading of your body, but the fact that society rejects the notion that your illness even exists. Societal messages of "you are not worthy of being helped," "you're too inconvenient to be worth keeping alive," "your existence is just a drain on society," is expressed in words, action, and inaction constantly and it permeates medical professionals, friends, and families we all interact with. Any doctors who disagree and try to help us are typically hunted down by large powerful entities, so it's a general rule we don't post their names here to protect them.

I believe the majority of those who come to this Lyme forum, come because they are viciously fighting these societal messages and/or trying to help others to do so. We care for each other because we often find ourselves in the awful place of feeling like we're dying physically and are cut off from anyone who cares, much less tries to help. This extreme loneliness in the midst of agony drives us online to at least find sympathy among strangers we meet online, to find people who will fight for us, and not against us as we cry in pain. We were in the middle of trying to offer this emotional support to destiny when you locked the discussion.

To a number of us, this felt like we had gathered around a person screaming in pain to comfort them and see what could be done, then a stranger came in duct taped the mouth of the screaming sufferer shut, forced us all to leave the room, then left themself and locked the sufferer in the room alone. I understand you thought you were helping, but it stepped on a very raw spot for our community who are constantly being told, "you're not worthy of being helped," and "you're not acceptable person unless you pretend you're not suffering" to see one of our fellow sufferers gagged and isolated while they were screaming in pain.

The 3 Lyme moderators I know of, are all aware of this aspect of the illness, and I do believe would have acted with more sensitivity because of it. Hence I really believe moderation would be better conducted largely by moderators appointed to the specific forums. Having spam deletion as an exception is fine.

Thank you for this very "adult" explanation without insulting me or calling me names. I really appreciate it.
Posted 6/13/2024 2:25 PM (GMT 0)
You're right Bailey. It should be a place where all of that stigma is irrelevant. I know I've been one of those people making threads here in absolutely dire straits - getting support that doesn't really exist anywhere else.

This isnt an alternative to support from appropriate medical professionals. It is though a place to be reminded one is not alone in this nightmare that lyme disease can be - or chronic illness as a whole for that matter.

You deleted my last post in the other thread michele. You admitted it didn't break the rules and you no doubt saw the long list of threads involving the issue at hand. Please remember this.

Someone's life, I'd value over the 20 minutes that the owner might have to speak to whatever authority and probably not be held liable for anything - any day of the week.

Please remember there's a human being on the other end of the computer. It's hard to be nice to someone who's being a bit of a jerk frankly.
Posted 6/13/2024 2:35 PM (GMT 0)

fergleman said...
You're right Bailey. It should be a place where all of that stigma is irrelevant. I know I've been one of those people making threads here in absolutely dire straits - getting support that doesn't really exist anywhere else.

This isnt an alternative to support from appropriate medical professionals. It is though a place to be reminded one is not alone in this nightmare that lyme disease can be - or chronic illness as a whole for that matter.

You deleted my last post in the other thread michele. You admitted it didn't break the rules and you no doubt saw the long list of threads involving the issue at hand. Please remember this.

Someone's life, I'd value over the 20 minutes that the owner might have to speak to whatever authority and probably not be held liable for anything - any day of the week.

Please remember there's a human being on the other end of the computer. It's hard to be nice to someone who's being a bit of a jerk frankly.

I did not delete any posts in this forum. And while I understand the frustration of me locking that thread, the replies will be better understood without the personal insults that were said to me.
Posted 6/14/2024 1:30 PM (GMT 0)
I am sorry then. I must have been mistaken. I apologise for saying you were clowning around as well.

Post Edited (fergleman) : 6/14/2024 5:34:03 AM (GMT-8)

Posted 6/14/2024 4:40 PM (GMT 0)
I think this matter is largely resolved and the heat now dissipated.

I would however like to highlight that, although I think everyone here can understand why emotions ran high on this occasion, this forum does not support personal insults towards other members.

Strong disagreement via rational argument or counter opinion is on the other hand absolutely fine.

So, even though we may find it hard to understand and even take offence at others remarks or actions, that does not give us the right to abuse them.
In this case I think it’s clear that Michele, however misguided or unintentionally insensitive we feel that may have been, was doing what she thought best, for reasons that made sense to her at the time, rather than deliberately trying to do harm.

Fengleman, I do understand why you reacted so strongly and I share many of your concerns, and while I am not a fan of heavy-handed moderation, the insults were unnecessary and clearly against the forum rules, so, it would be great if you would either apologise for the insults or remove them.

Michele, regarding the need for additional moderation of the lyme forum by other moderators. The lyme forum has managed to get by with a very light touch from its moderators for many years without issue and we would like to keep it that way. We hardly ever feel the need to intervene in discussions and when we do we feel that the members of this group who suffer with the same complex conditions and understand its members best are those best placed to moderate the group with appropriate sensitivity.

In terms of spam posts. I can tell you that we see and extremely low level of spam, maybe one spam post per month, which any one of the three existing moderators can deal with quite easily.

So, there really isn’t any actual need for interventions from other moderators - I would therefore ask you to refrain from moderating on this board without at least consulting with one of the Lyme Forum moderators first. Either saraeli, Girlie or myself.

Of course, no-one will object if you wish to remove obvious spam post.

I hope this is a workable conclusion for all concerned
Posted 6/14/2024 10:53 PM (GMT 0)
Apart from saying "clowning around" I didn't say anything else. I'm not one for insults if I'm honest. I did ridicule some pretty spurious statements though. I've said my piece and said sorry.

EDIT:

I did say that you were dumb, so I do apologise for that much michelejc.

Post Edited (fergleman) : 6/14/2024 3:02:18 PM (GMT-8)

Posted 6/15/2024 2:41 AM (GMT 0)
Tudpock18, thank you for your reply.

Just to respond to some of your points:

I actually did open a thread called "Question about the post that was just locked" and I did not use any insults towards anyone. And yet it got locked.

In fact, in this entire ordeal I haven't used any insults towards any one. You can check my entire post history if you'd like.

The worst I've said was "This is really uncalled for", but that seems like a reasonable response to what happened. So I won't be apologizing for that.

In regards to reaching out to moderators and the CEO, there are 2 problems here:

1) As you pointed out, nobody can reach the CEO. I've emailed him in the past with some positive ideas for HealingWell and he doesn't reply. Furthermore, he does seem to come on HealingWell every now and then, so that leads me to believe that he's capable of reading emails but just doesn't reply.

2) It is my understanding that Garzie still can't access the moderator part of the website. Is there any way this can be fixed? You mentioned that he should reach out to the CEO, but that leads us back to my first point. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if Garzie has already tried doing that, with no response from the CEO.

Do you happen to know why it's so hard to reach him? The odd part to me is that the previous owner behaved the exact same way. It's very conflicting considering they've done a great job at offering us a platform, and yet completely contrary to that, they don't seem to care about any form of contact with us.

Anyway, I'm glad this situation has calmed down now.
Posted 6/15/2024 11:17 AM (GMT 0)
apologies for singling you out Fengleman

for some reason i was under the impression that you and Brantheman were the same person 🤦🏽

good of you to apologise none the less.

all the best!
Posted 6/15/2024 8:02 PM (GMT 0)
No harm, no foul lol smile
Posted 6/15/2024 8:06 PM (GMT 0)
I've been away from the forum for a few days dealing with personal stuff, and it appears that I missed a lot! I'm sorry if my absence has made things more complicated, and thank everyone who has been sorting things out.

Whether we agree with someone or not, we all need to address each other respectfully and summon some generosity of spirit. Some of the things said to Michele were unacceptable, inappropriate, and totally disproportionate. It's not an easy task to be a moderator for a chronic illness forum, and we have to assume good intent. I have no doubt that Michele made a judgment call with the best of intentions and based on what has worked in the past!

Mods have very little luck reaching the CEO or anyone at E Healthcare Solutions, so this is something we're going to need to figure out ourselves. Moderators sticking to their own forums and doing their best with spam seems like a reasonable guideline, moving forward. We can email each other directly if there's a specific issue on another forum that is causing us concern.

Garzie is our primary moderator these days (Girlie and I are here often, but Garzie does the lion's share of moderating these days) and he wasn't given full access to moderator privileges. Unfortunately this means he can't access the moderator forum until someone from E Healthcare Solutions decides to get involved with this forum again and grant him access. And to be honest, even when I spent hours per day moderating this forum, I only checked the moderator forum every few months because I had my hands full here!

I think if a forum member has an issue with a moderator, then they could email that moderator directly, or a different moderator for help. (I think most mods have an email address available in their profiles for this reason.) I think this is functionally a grassroots operation at this point, with no corporate HR complaint procedure available.
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