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How hard can you push treatment before something breaks?

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Posted 2/13/2012 7:25 AM (GMT 0)
I've been sick ~12 years, diagnosed and started treatment 4 months ago. I made minimal (though some) progress with orals and added a PICC line with Rocephin to the orals around 10 days ago. There's been some wild herxing in this first period on the IV, but I'm handling it. In fact, I'm ready for more. I feel like I'm finally in the fight and the pain of treatment actually signals something productive.

I have a young family and want nothing more than to finish this treatment process as quickly as humanly possible. I'm out of work, so I don't have to balance work and treatment. I'm young, healthy other than TBIs and I'm an exceptionally compliant patient.

I'm figuring that all this should raise the amount of intensity I can endure with the treatment. As I understand it, the speed of treatment is often bottlenecked by the amount a patient can tolerate. If that bottleneck is removed, what stands as the next barrier? I know there's no point to upping doses once you are at an effective dosage, but can you combine many stages of treatment all at once if it can be tolerated (ie cyst busters + biofilm drugs + multiple heavy abx + coinfection treatments)?

 

I'm very clear on how to spot trouble with my PICC now and wouldn't try to tough out anything with that. I know about possible gallstones and know how to handle that. Other than those, what potentially dangerous situations would start to pop up if I just put my head down and smashed through the herx and side effects (while being smart about detoxing, diet, etc)? I'm assuming that something mechanical will eventually fail that would force me to back off, but don't know what sort of thing that entails.

 

Posted 2/13/2012 12:35 PM (GMT 0)
I don't believe in pushing your body to the limit. It has enough pressure on it to try and beat the bacteria, deal with the antibiotics and fighting off anything else the body comes in contact with. Your immune system can only take so much. Why push the envelope until something fails? Slow and steady was my choice. Don't get me wrong, at one point I was taking 32 pills a day. I guess it depends on the person but you have to listen to your body. If it signals, slow down, I think you have to listen to it.
Posted 2/13/2012 12:35 PM (GMT 0)
I don't believe in pushing your body to the limit. It has enough pressure on it to try and beat the bacteria, deal with the antibiotics and fighting off anything else the body comes in contact with. Your immune system can only take so much. Why push the envelope until something fails? Slow and steady was my choice. Don't get me wrong, at one point I was taking 32 pills a day. I guess it depends on the person but you have to listen to your body. If it signals, slow down, I think you have to listen to it.
Posted 2/13/2012 12:47 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Spall,

It's great to hear that you are so pumped to go after this disease. You've done your homework and are very well prepared!

It's a little hard to predict what kind of problems you could encounter. There are too many different variables and your body is a bit of a mystery.

There are some Lyme doctors who feel that going after a long-held infection too aggressively can lead to driving the bacteria further into the less accessible areas like the brain and nervous system. I'm sure your doc has this in mind.

I think most of us here are combining the different treatments you mention -- again, your doctor will know what combinations should not be used. Adding treatments one at time gradually is very important so that you can clearly see what is causing any adverse reaction.

My advice to you would be to keep your head up! Onwards and Upwards! Don't listen to other people's horror stories, don't let anyone tell you, "Oh, Lyme, you'll never get over that." Keep taking good care of yourself and you will be well on your way back to full health.
Posted 2/13/2012 2:23 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Spall,

I'm with SpringsJean, take it slow.  Your post scares me with all the medications you mentioned and the speed of taking them.

This is not a contest and the human body is not meant to handle all those antibiotics.  You could do more harm than good in my non-medical opinion.

I understand your wanting to get better as fast as you can but learn about the Immune System and how to build your system so it's strong enough to kill bacteria on it's own (yes, the human body is very capable of that).

Also, detox!  Where do you think the die-offs go if you don't help your body get rid of them which are toxins?  They get recycled back in your bloodstream, tissues, etc. if you don't dry skin brush daily, take detox baths, foot baths (as many as you can handle, follow the instructions in the New to Lyme Sticky), etc.

What is your diet like?  Are you eating lots of veggies and fruits?  Are you supplementing with probiotics and vitamins?

Just very concerned,
Denise

Posted 2/13/2012 5:14 PM (GMT 0)
Spall - you sound like ME! LOL. But as most folks here suggest - slow and steady wins the race. If you try and nuke all the invaders at once, you might nuke yourself as well! That said, the threshold between how much you can handle versus what is enough to treat seems to be very individualized. As you do treatment, keep good notes on what you take and when and how you are affected. IMO, you want to find that nice middle-of-the-road place where you can function on a daily basis yet still steadily and progressively rid the body of the critters.

My LLMD uses this approach quite effectively and, I would push too hard at times and send myself into a tizzy with herxing and the like. Some folks feel that heavy herxing is necessary to become better - I am NOT one of them. Though you can probably always expect some mild herxing at times, it's best not to push too far there as you beat up your body too much and end up decreasing its own ability to fight off the disease. And, just when you think you've figured that all out, things will change and you'll have to readjust. It's a wild journey I tell you. The more you detox, the better. At some point, the expectation should be that you will see that you can rely less and less on the abx/herbals and more on your own body's immune system as it regains its strength. THE END GAME IS TO GET YOUR OWN BODY BACK UP TO PAR TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT THE CRITTERS ITSELF. That will happen as your pathgen load decreases and you get rid of the associated toxins so that homeostasis can return to all your body's hormonal and other systems. Too much herxing, too often can really take a toll on your adrenals, your liver, kidneys and other detox pathways.
Posted 2/13/2012 6:01 PM (GMT 0)
My doctor said that if we kill to many bacteria at once my body could see those toxins as a threat and I could get a reaction resembling the anaphylactic shock. He said that I must be careful when having a bad herx to keep an eye on my blood pressure and heart rhythm.
I'm not sure I explained it as good as he explained it to me...but it makes sense...
Also, because I herxed a lot and at a very high level during my first antibiotic treatment he said he can't recommend me for Hyperbaric oxygen therapy until my body stops reacting so aggressively.
Posted 2/13/2012 7:30 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for the responses so far, I've read everything 3-4 times already.

I should have mentioned that I'm also on a constant watch for something resembling anaphylactic shock. Histamine shock is somehow part of my disease process, but I manage with OTC medications. So far treatment doesn't seem to be making this symptom any worse, but I do not, and will not, take chances with this type of reaction.

There's no middle ground for me right now because I'm too sick to function with or without treatment. The day to day changes I have learned to live have desensitized me to the sort of hardships that the herx reactions might cause. I can go to sleep doing relatively well one night and wake up in the middle of the night suddenly blind in one eye, deaf in one ear, unable to walk and in so much pain my teeth hurt from clenching my jaw too hard. If I tack a headache, neck stiffness, light/sound sensitivity and flu symptoms on top of that (my typical herx reactions) then they're just a drop in the bucket.

Please don't mistake my determination for carelessness. I record everything that happens, I call my dr when anything brand new happens, I fill them in on everything that happened at every visit (every 2 weeks now that the PICC is in). I am not out hunting for a herx and don't see it as a wall to climb over. I just don't want it to stand in my way during what could be an effective treatment.
Posted 2/13/2012 7:36 PM (GMT 0)
The more intensive the herx, the more the body quits healing because it has to deal with the herx, not to mention with all of the stress you would be putting on your body. Things like your adrenals could completely shut down and all kinds of other endocrine system issues could cause major problems as well. There are just too many potentially serious issues that can occur when pushing your body as hard as you are suggesting.

Please listen to all of the wonderful people here giving you their best advice! Once again, slow and easy will win the 'race' (for healing).
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