Protocol - Advice - Lymepickle...anyone?

So, I was on doxy and zithro combo...prior to seeing a LL Dr. I developed a rash on my back which I originally thought was zithro...but thinking now that is incorrect...and it was probably from the doxy. The LLND said to stop both...because he felt I had given it a fair chance with not enough improvement for length of time I was on it, plus the rash.
So, I'm now on Ammox - and after four weeks the Dr. may add Flagyl (for cysts).

My question: Can a macrolide be added to a penicillin? i.e. Ammox and zithro go together?
Secondly, will it have any effect on bart?
If not, I know rifampin goes with zithromax for bart...but can rifampin be added to ammox?

Hi Girlie,

If I were you, I would follow what your dr is advicing you to take. He is LL, so he will know what to combine, taking your specific symptoms and reactions into consideration. I took 15 months of oral abx, and never ever combined something myself, although I have left overs from all kinds of abx.
Earlier this year, I was in hospital, and a non LL dr gave me a kind of antibiotic that I shouldn't have gotten, which complicated a coinfection situation, and is is giving me tons of problems now.

You might want to ask your llmd about treating Bartonella with Rifampicin? Rifampicin needs to be taken very regularly, I wouldn't experiment with it...

Can you contact your dr easely, like through email?

Hi Girlie,

Were you able to get to the full dose of 3000 mg 3 times per day with the probencid?  For me taking amox three times per day was too hard for my GI tract.  Amox has a short half life.  I just preferred to take probiotics before going to bed.  So I took amox twice daily.  Dr. C is open to changing it twice daily. 

The zithromax can be added.  I know you need to follow the advice of Dr. C, but he will likely say it can be added.  I already know Dr. C's thinking.  His argument is that a protein synthesis inhibior (azithromycin) will reduce the effectiveness of amoxicillin.   But I think it still helps, and will at least keep the bart symptoms down. The zithromax accumulates in your immune cells too so it has a tendancy to accumulate in places where there is an infection.   Also because it accumulates so well in tissues...  You can take it 5 days on 5 days off, or 4 days on, 3 days off.  Etc.  If you take the zithromax it will inhibit the bartonella symptoms.    This antibiotic has a very long half life in the body which has some major advantages over others.

 

I think what Dr. C is trying to do is stimulate your immune system.  The Japanese knotweed is stiring things up and forcing lyme out of the cells.  The cat's claw boosts the immune system and the amox is a really tolerable antibiotic to kill the lyme when they come out of the cells.

 

I think zithromax is pretty mild compared to many abx.  More like the 'soft kind' of antibiotics.  It is also very mild on your mitochondria too (compared to tetracyclines and esspecially fluoroquinolones).   I think this helped keep your bartonella reduced.  Now bart is flaring !  I think the japanese knotweed is further making it stir up.

 

I just think macrolides are among the more tolerable antibiotics out there.  Azithromycin is a lot softer on the GI tract as well compared to many of the other antibiotics. 

 

Many LLMDs treat using amoxicillin and azithromycin at the same time.  Many say it is more effective like this as well.  For a Dr. H first time protocol he treats aggressive and usually does this.  Other LLMDs want to start off lighter, and they might only prescribe azithromycin as a starting antibiotic.  It will cover all the germs.

 

Also, yes you can use amoxicillin, azithromycin, and rifampin all together.  But this is a huge load on your GI tract.  That would give you coverage for bartonella and lyme.  Also remember to ask for the nystatin next appointment!  This may require you to take more probiotics as well.  You can ask Dr. C about this, he may require montly blood checks to ensure your liver and kidneys are doing well.  Milk thistle is needed to protect the liver against potentially elevated enzymes with rifampin! I remember taking that and it made my liver ache at first but then I added in the milk thistle. 

 

Also... Just wanted to let you know of other cell wall drugs available that are actually proven to be much more effective than amoxicillin... Ceftin and another one in Canada called Supax is available.  These are cephalosporins.  They can kill lyme spirochetes even if they aren't reproducing.  Also the dosing is a little lower on these ones too, and there is a longer half life.  But big advantage of amoxicillin is that it is not very toxic!

 

 

I think if you use rifampin. You will want to use zithromax on top of it. Not amoxicillin and rifampin like that. Bartonella actually needs 2 intracellular antibiotics. Amoxicillin doesn't work 'in vivo' for bart treatment. It only kills test tube bartonella.

The main abx against bart are either with a quinolone, rifampin, or septra DS. (actually in order of effectiveness). But these need to be paired with another one. Rifampin and septra DS can also be paired.

The support abx for bart are clarithromycin, azithromycin, minocycline, doxycycyline. (I think also in that order)

I really don't know if rifampin is useful for Lyme though? Dr. C said it does help with lyme, Dr. MR said yes it treats cyst form. But I read a study that says rifampin had 0 effect on the # of spirochetes in a culture. So maybe it doesn't kill them directly, but it does keep them in check? I don't know. Maybe it just helps Lyme patients because it is a good way to treat bartonella. Also I read it doesn't help mycoplasma.

The cephalosporins are generally not that toxic. They even say it is safe for use in pregnancy. I haven't taken it myself, but it is an option.


Oh haha! The way I worded it makes it seems like I said 9000 mg a day! I meant taking the 3000 mg over the course of 3 times per day. So 1000 mg 3 times daily. Some people have actually taken doses like this believe it or not! Must make them nauseous.