Treatment for L-form (cell wall deficient) Borrelia?

I think we all know about the various abx used to treat Borrelia spirochetes...and stuff like Flagyl/Tindamax/GSE to treat cyst forms.....and stuff like Serrapeptase to treat biofilms.

What's out there to treat the L-form (cell wall deficient) Borrelia?

Actually the L-form is actually questionable. Does it really have 3 forms? As in, there is no lab evidence that supports an L-form or supposedly cell wall deficient form actually exists. (If I'm wrong please send a link to data that proves it exists).

In lab cultures there are only 2 forms. There is the spirochete and then the round body form (AKA cyst). Some people mistakenly think that this cyst or round body form is the L-form. It can also make a little small granule form but this form eventually turns into the cyst, it is like a small life boat when under stress.

What IS true however is that Borrelia can move inside cells in the body. Some say it turns into a little vacuole, others suggest it simply stays in a spirochetes. So sometimes the L-form is simply referred to as the "lives inside cells form". I don't believe in cell wall deficient forms as to me these bacteria would simply fall apart if they have no cell wall or something for their structure. Mycoplasmas can do this as they build a special matrix around them to give structure.

You have to use antibiotics that go inside cells which include tetracyclines, macrolides, quinolones. Also Flagyl and Tinidazole can go inside cells too. Now if there is a cyst form inside cells? That is tricky as it can happen and some argue they can't be treated instead you have to wait until they come out of the cell. TinidaZole does go inside our cells as well but it may not be in high enough concentrations.

I found this article interesting; it discusses new research/insight into the forms the bacteria morph into. It is pulled from the SurvivingMold website, recommended by a new member on this forum:

www.survivingmold.com/community/important-new-findings-regarding-lyme-bacteria-part-1-pleomorphic-forms-of-bb

That *is* a great find, Maui!!!

I really liked this part:

"The next challenge is to integrate this knowledge into our approach to diagnosing and treating Lyme disease while bearing in mind that Bb plasmid DNA may code for toxins that, in the genetically susceptible, will be retained, resulting in a form of innate immune system activation that will not stop unless and until those biotoxins can be bound and removed from the bodies of the sufferers."

Hopefully, LLMD's who don't seem to appreciate the need for detoxing will read this and realize why we talk about it so much ;)

Thanks so much for the link!

So LP - Currently I am on Ceftin - no macrolide or tetracycline anymore. I pulse Tindamax - just two days a week. I know that the protocols are two antibiotics paired together....eg: Tetracycline plus macrolide, or Penicillin plus macrolide....
Am I setting myself up for a back-slide - just being on one antibiotic? Does it count that I was on biaxin for a few months with the Ceftin?

Is the Tindamax twice a week enough to be considered the 'second antibiotic'?

If I was to go into my 'arsenal' and grab something to go with the Ceftin, what would pair with it (along with two days of Tindi)?

Doxy? ammox? I would prefer to not add back the macrolide (zithro or biaxin).

Thanks LP. I don't have any mino in my 'arsenal'....lol
I only have about 10 days of doxy.

But, I really shouldn't be doing this without Dr. C.'s knowledge anyway. I was just thinking I would give myself a couple week boost of something...see what it does. I'm usually a VERY cautious person...if I'm considering going 'rogue', it means i'm getting fed up...desperate...to be better.

what do you mean 500 mg tini daily? I'm doing 1000mg Tini daily for two days.
Each capsule I have is 500 mg. and I take it twice a day.
Is that a high dose? Maybe that's why I herxed bad on the tini.

I have also thought of adding in some biaxin for a week which Dr. C. would be okay with - as he did prescribe the biaxin with the Ceftin...but I stopped because of the rash. I still have lots of biaxin. He always prescribes 5 weeks - and my appointments are always 4 weeks coupled with the few days off here and there when I herx = a lot of extra meds leftover.

Yes LP - Dr. C. and I discuss my 'bart issues' each appointment. We were planning on adding Rifampin and switching to doxy (dropping ceftin)...but I had some improvement in my supposed bart symptoms - my feet don't hurt as much, and my rib pain still hasn't come back. I think even my vibrations aren't as bad...I find it hard to tell with the vibrations. They seem to be occuring at a lower 'frequency' if that makes any sense. More like a motor running in my body...rather than a higher frequency buzzing...lol. Except sometimes, the buzzing does come back.
This stuff is from the twilight zone.


Yikes - sorry to hijack this thread!

I don't in any way have a vested interest of settling the issue as to whether a Cell Wall Deficient Form (L-form) of Borrelia exists in contrast to the Round Forms. I have no advanced scientific training of any sort. In addition my daughter's successful treatment consisted of working for the restoration of Optimal Functional Integrity, including the immune system as the means to achieve wellness.

I came across a few articles in which I believe the case has been supported that these L-forms do indeed exist. The fact that these L-forms share similarities with Round Forms does not necessarily mean that they are the same form. It is the dissimilarities that settle the debate. After perusing these article I discovered that the researchers posited many differences between the 2 forms.

RF = Round Forms LF = L-Forms

RF are metabolically inactive. LF are metabolically active.
RF have a narrow expression of shapes. LFhave a very diverse expression of shapes.
RF have a smaller spectrum of sizes. LF have an incredible spectrum of sizes (virus to Fungi spore size)
RF are easier to culture. LF are more difficult to culture.
RF have a cell wall. LF have a cytoplasmic membrane which is distinguishable from a cell wall.

There were many other differences between the 2 forms as well. As far as the supposed impossibility for an L-Form borrelia to exist because they would burst if unsupported, there are answers. They exist in both stable and unstable forms. The stable forms exist in supporting structures, while unstable forms exist with ionogenic and other energetic support.

Many extremely competent researchers such as Drs. Lida Mattman, Alan MacDonald, and the Brorsons have made a strong case for L-forms, as well as the Lister Institute. Here are some of the articles that I perused:

http://alzheimerborreliosis.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/April-12-2012-PDF-Cystic-Borrelia-Manifesto.pdf
(starts on page 188, however the whole article is fascinating)

http://scholarworks.sjsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1263&context=etd_theses
(L-forms/spheroplasts starts on page 23, however the whole article is fascinating)

http://bacteriality.com/2007/08/18/history/

http://www.lymeneteurope.org/info/cell-wall-deficient-bacteria

https://chronicillnessrecovery.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=175:intracellular-bacteria&catid=5:about-it


In sumnation, I don't see how these researchers could make these claims without being outright liars if what they are saying isn't true.

Don

Post Edited (Heathersdad) : 2/23/2015 1:51:45 AM (GMT-7)