HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

Which abx treat both lyme and barto?

Support Forums
>
Lyme Disease
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 3/5/2015 9:02 AM (GMT 0)
Hi, which abx treat lyme AND barto?

Son had a bad experience with doxy and so did I
Revive said Rimfapin but seems to cause sleeping problems

Any others?  Does Mino treat both?  I don't remember how my doc treated it when I had it. 

Thanks!

Posted 3/5/2015 12:10 PM (GMT 0)
You need a combination of ABX. No single Rx will treat multiple lyme related infections.

Rif, zith, doxy

and

Rif, mino, plaq

combos worked well for me. add tindamax to either combo to add more punch
Posted 3/5/2015 2:13 PM (GMT 0)
Thank, TB.

Yes, I also had a cambo of 2-3 drugs, but I don't remember anything besides mino and amox. I know dr. prescribed something to bust the cysts and something to treat the L-for bacteria, but I can't remember what else I took. I took Clarythomicin I think, too. and something else that starts with C, but I can't remember. I think I may remember if I see the name. Thanks!
Posted 3/5/2015 2:32 PM (GMT 0)
I'm taking rifampin, zithromax, I pulse and tindamax I only take 3 days out of the month. Then for 5 days I do a lactoferrin/xylitol thing for biofilms. I'm on rif constantly, side effects show It can cause you to be tired, not me.
Posted 3/5/2015 4:17 PM (GMT 0)
Phase 1 for me was Mino. LLMD's handout says it treats lyme, RMSF, tularemia, ehrlichia and mycoplasma. I was concerned because I knew I had Bart as well and thought maybe tackling Bart first or at least in conjunction with lyme was important. LLMD confirmed it also affects Bart but I don't think it can be cured with 1 month of mino. I have Phase 6 in a few months where I take Rifampin.

I asked my LLMD about abx combos and he said it was not necessary. He claims to have a 97% recovery rate with his patients and does not use combos with the exception of Babs treatment. Maybe the 3% would benefit from combos? Not saying this is gospel, just wanted to share what was conveyed to me :)
Posted 3/6/2015 10:44 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks, Revive!

I hope you are traveling well--or is it over? We got snow in PA, but only about 1/2 foot. It could have been worse!

If you are herxing from R, at least is working! Sorry you can't rest, it seems that everything is worse when we can't rest! :)

*********************************************

Thanks, LM!

Yes, my LLMD did not follow rigid guidelines, either. I was on Amox for a few months and then he switched the protocol several times adding other drugs to Amox. From all of them, I was on Amox the most. He added prebenecit (sp?) so bugs won't become immune to it. I think they learn through trial and error what works best. It's good to know Mino works for so many of the TBD! Maybe since you were taking just Mino, he put you on a high enough dose that you would not need a combo?
Posted 3/7/2015 4:46 AM (GMT 0)
Antibiotics that treat Bart are:

Fluroquinolones especially levaquin and factiv which are the best 2 for Bart. Obviously this is one of the higher risk classes of antibiotics to take.

Rifampin is probably the next best thing.

Septra DS (AKA bactrim) works well with Bart.

Then Zithromax and clarithromycin both work well for Bart.

Minocycline, doxycycline, and tetracycline also works.

If you combine Rifampin with clarithromycin or doxycycline, the Rifampin will decrease the levels of these drugs in the blood stream so the best 3 pairs with rifampin are azithromycin, minocycline, or Septra DS.

That's pretty much it! Really it is. Cell wall drugs don't work intracellularly so they can't really fully treat Bart. Also remember Bart needs to be treated always with a minimum of 2 antibiotics, sometimes upto 3 for tricky strains. Otherwise you'll have to go with the combination herbs!

I'm now treating with 3 abx because I'm sick of Bart lol. I'm using minocycline + azithromycin + rifampin. Seems to work good.

And I do NOT have sleeping problems from taking the rifampin. I think it's more of a herx that is causing that issue in some people. But that's just what I think.

And I see you say AND lyme. Well for the best abx for bart that also treat lyme are:

Rifampin - I personally don't think it works very well for lyme. But I notice some LLMDs say it works for cysts, others say it works for intracellular lyme, others say it just works! Lol, I have no idea but in my experience it is just working for Bartonella symptoms, and the only study I can find says it "has no effect on spirochetes, including lyme". So it's hard to say.

Septra DS - stops lyme from reproducing. So lyme won't reproduce when on Septra DS but it doesn't have much killing power though, but the lyme infection will not get worse. This blocks bacterial folate synthesis which will stop bacteria from reproducing including lyme which was just proven in the study that came out from John Hopkins university last year.

Minocycline/doxycycline/tetracycline - all 3 treat both

Clarithromycin/azithromycin - treat both... Clarithromycin is stronger for both as well.

Factiv- treats lyme very well!

Levaquin - does not work for lyme.

Post Edited (LymePickle) : 3/6/2015 9:55:49 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/7/2015 11:16 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks, LP for this very detailed post. Interesting about the Septra DS! So this works for ALL bacterial infections, including lyme? That's fantastic!

One of the researchers at John Hopkins acknowledged that the Lyme bacteria changes forms from spirochetes to L-form, making it impossible for the abx prescribed to kill spirochetes to eradicate the infection. I actually see some work coming out of JH, but nothing on co-infections. But at least they are acknowledging the difficulty in treating lyme and that 1 mo of abx doesn't always cure patients.

I think my son has lyme, barto and babesia, based on his symptoms. We will see my former LLMD for him for the first time on Monday. I am quite nervous because his major problems are with CNS. Mine was mostly pain! His pain got better after about 2 mo of abx for sinus infection and ear infection, but I am quite worried about long term abx in a 10 year old, especially combos!
Posted 3/8/2015 2:58 AM (GMT 0)
Simela... Do you mean changes from spirochete to round body (AKA cyst)? There are no l-forms present in Petri dish or Lab experiments. The l-form only happens inside living hosts.

And yes it was exciting news to find septra DS ... Sulfamethoxazole in particular will keep lyme inhibited and prevent it from growing.
Posted 3/8/2015 4:06 AM (GMT 0)
LP:

Below is a link to the article. He believes the spirochetes MIGHT change forms to an L-form. Also, they are experimenting a new drug. Here is a fragment from the article:

"Zhang is in the latter camp. He suspects that under certain conditions, B. burgdorferi might change to an unusual form known as L-forms, one type of heterogeneous persisters. In the L-form state, bacteria lack cell walls—a major target of most commonly used antibiotics. Pyrazinamide, however, targets different sites (energy production and protein degradation) in the cell, and Zhang’s lab has demonstrated that the drug is uniquely effective against tuberculosis bacteria that have transitioned into a dormant “persister” state and are tolerant to most antibiotics.

Might pyrazinamide (or a similar compound) have the same kind of power against Lyme disease? That is what Zhang hopes to learn in the next several years. His lab’s early studies have been promising. He and his colleagues have already found that the active form of pyrazinamide—pyrazinoic acid—has some effect against B. burgdorferi in vitro. Now they are preparing to test the drug’s power against B. burgdorferi in mice.

Zhang and his team also will test hundreds of different medicinal compounds to see if they have any in vitro effectiveness against the dormant form of the bacterium."

http://magazine.jhsph.edu/2013/fall/news-briefs/two-takes-on-lyme/

The other researcher towards the end of the article, talks about the lyme bacteria's capability to "steal" our manganese--something that Dr. K from Washington state has been talking about for years.

My LLMD treated me for L-form bacteria, so it is hardly something new in the Lyme community. But at least the big recognized hospitals like JH come out with these articles and that makes us look less like "nuts" along with our LLMDs who are resisting the "1 mo of treatment is all you need for Lyme" idea.
Posted 3/8/2015 4:42 AM (GMT 0)
Simela... I researched so much of this bacteria. And unfortunately I just don't believe in l-forms. To me the l-form is just lives in cells form which is proven it can do, yes it's proven borrelia can drill inside pretty much any cell in our body, but to me that doesn't mean it shifted it's form.... Just like bartonella, chlamydia, mycoplasmas and other bacteria can do. If they have no cell wall they would just fall apart because of lack of structure. However I don't know everything. It's just my own opinion but I feel strongly about.

Clearly Borrelia has a round body form which is often confused by many as l-form. Whenever pictures of borrelia in culture are shown I see spirochetes, round bodies (the cyst), and sometimes biofilm forms. There is nothing else I can see as l-forms and I looked at so many pictures. There is also the granules releases from the spirochete or bleb forms which spawn new spirochetes. These can be very small and require special imaging to detect as they are so small.

It's either that ... Or there is no such thing as cyst forms and the cyst forms or round body forms are the l-forms. But I think they are known as cyst forms as antibiotics like tinidazole, flagyl, and grapefruit seed extract are needed for these forms.
Posted 3/8/2015 6:03 AM (GMT 0)
I just read the article... And yes it says "l-form"... But then it is already known that drugs that treat the cell wall form don't treat the cyst or round body form which matches the "l-form" in this article. Also the persister form to me is simply a bacteria that shuts off it's metabolism that makes it immune to antibiotics. It could also be a spirochete form. This was found in the recent John Hopkins study. So if there is an l-form, does that mean there is no cyst form? There is no proven differentiation between l-form and cyst form in test tubes or cultures by the way. Add to that... Why wouldn't they just use doxycycline or a macrolide to treat the l-form? Why are they having to resort to some other drug?

To me there are spirochetes --> blebs (granules) --> round body forms (cysts) --> back to spirochete. That's the Borrelia life cycle... It generally changes under stress.

I just can't comprehend Borrelia as a blob, the physics just doesn't support it. Just imagine what you would be like with no skin, skeleton or Structure. You would just fall apart. Mycoplasma is the only bacteria that can do this cell wall deficient form as it has a protein made matrix that holds itself together. Again maybe I am wrong as I have read on these cell wall deficient bacteria but I just don't believe it to be true.

Post Edited (LymePickle) : 3/7/2015 11:09:45 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/8/2015 7:20 AM (GMT 0)
LP:

I am doing very little research right now on the actual bacteria--I am constantly searching for products to beat it. When I was sick, I did look into the actual literature, but now that my kids are sick, I am looking into products, both abx and herbal.

So, I am not sure if the L-form lyme bacteria exists or not. I've read about all the forms you mentioned, too: blebs, cysts, biofilms. But at the end of the day--5 years later when MY KIDS are sick, I do not care anymore how the Lyme bacteria looks like. I remember I was getting sick just looking at pictures on my LLMDs walls when I was treating. So I would avoid looking at the pics in his office. Now, I don't get sick looking at pics of the bacteria anymore, I just no longer care how they look LOL I just want to kill them all LOL And I am researching different protocols to accomplish that, since I am in very good shape and no longer sick and almost 100% symptom free.

So I will let the actual form or the form-change to the researchers and I will concentrate in finding different products that may work together to get rid of this ugly bacteria, no matter what it looks like LOL

Tonight for example, I studied the olive leaf. I bought it after someone recommended it on here and did a quick check and saw people were using it from reviews left by users. So, I am "hunting" for a short most effective abx therapy AND natural herbs after that, as I do not believe that abx can cure us entirely if the bacteria is already in the CNS, which I believe is the case with my son and older daughter. Yes, probably with Rocephin or other IV abx, but they are expensive and dangerous and our insurance won't even cover any of it unless is prescribed by an ID.

Here is a pretty good article and they are many others: The great benefits of olive leaf: antibacterial, antifungal, anticancer, antioxidant, reduce the risk of many chronic and degenerative diseases etc. The olive leaf is mentioned even in the Bible! I don't think anyone died from it, but hundreds of thousands of people do die every year from prescribed meds.:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/01/23/healing-power-olive-leaf/

Post Edited (Simela1) : 3/8/2015 12:39:04 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/9/2015 2:36 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Simela... Same here, I just want something that will beat it, but I'm not trying to argue it's just how lyme is.

I remember looking at research reports from Dr.Sapi... Okay doxy is used and her results show a decrease in spirochetes and an increase in round body forms or cyst forms. The Tinidazole kills the round body or cyst forms. Now I watch a lyme lecture done by a lyme doctor and she shows the exact same study! She says in her lecture look doxycycline increases your cell wall deficient l-forms. But then other doctors say doxycycline is the agent to use for these forms! I watch another doctors lecture and he calls them cysts! So what is it!? If it's l-form then doxycycline is supposed to treat that form but her study shows it doesn't! So now I read the person that does the research calls it round body form, one doctor calls it CWD or l-form, and another doctor calls them cyst forms!

Lol! Really though. Maybe it is better to just call them round body forms as everyone can agree on that, because they are round and need tinidaZole, grapefruit seed extract, or Flagyl to treat.

I am planning on bumping up my detoxing methods soon... I think that really is my only real issue, that and bartonella.
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply