HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

Do not ignore ammonia... like many MD's... consequences can be deadly!

Support Forums
>
Lyme Disease
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 6/19/2015 10:35 AM (GMT 0)
I am taking Anti-tox (Dr J's product) for ammonia. I wanted to know what other reasons along with Lyme (which i don't expect MD to discuss) would cause the body to have high ammonia.

And there it is on the list...the very thing that i have been questioning for years! Always being assured by many doctors over the years "that i am well below the daily limit" when i asked "What will this do to my liver long term?".

My intent was to look for a natural alternative...but i did not...because i listened to the doctors...rather than my own instincts.

I should know better by now... *that nagging voice is ALWAYS there for a reason.

While searching... i come across Hepatitis,Cirrhosis of Liver,Autoimmune issues,... but i still don't "get it".

And then i see a list... and i finally get it!

Increased levels of ammonia may also be seen with:

Gastrointestinal bleeding - blood cells are hemolyzed in the intestines, releasing protein.
Muscular exertion - muscles produce ammonia when active and absorb it when resting.
Tourniquet use - ammonia levels can be increased in the blood sample collected.
Use of certain drugs, including alcohol, barbiturates, diuretics, valproic acid, and narcotics
Smoking

*Time to DETOX from pain meds... (I've been on vicoden for ten years now...)
*Why would a mainstream doctor discourage me from seeking a natural approach? Could it be because he depends on drug companies? <Like a junkie? Maybe not such a far fetched idea! shocked skull shocked

Post Edited (Bellyfull) : 6/19/2015 4:44:27 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/19/2015 10:42 AM (GMT 0)
Most doctors just don't check for ammonia...below is a dire example taken from website...

My uncle has been hospitalized in the Univ. of Utah hospital for around 4 1/2 weeks now. He was admitted with a possible MI and a Hx of Hep C. They discovered he was septic with MRSA not a MI.

He has been on a vent for 4 weeks, several I&D's at his sources of the MRSA, he is now on dialysis, and fighting to live. They chemically sedated him and are unable to wake him up. His condition has been unchanged for 3 weeks. I called and asked what his ammonia levels were last week.

The nurse gave me the run around and said they were within normal limits. Without the limits in front of me I don't know what they are. My husband went to Utah 2 days after I called, and all of a sudden they were checking ammonia levels and treating him with Lactulose, which I know is the appropriate Tx.

I know that Hep patients need to be monitored for elevated ammonia levels, so why did it take me, a CNA of 17 years, to be the one who brought this to their attention? According to their charts they never checked the levels until after I called, this means that the nurse lied to me. Is it just me or did I possible just help to save my uncle's life?

I am beginning to think that this teaching University Hospital is not what it is cracked up to be. Being lied to by a healthe care professional is a violation of nursing code of ethics. I am very disappointed and I encourage all family members to be proactive in their loved ones cares, and don't be afraid to ask questions.

What else can I expect form elevated ammonia levels that have be high for this long? I know that different labs have different values, but ball park, what are normal and what are severe levels? Will he have possible brain damage?

*Edited to break up long paragraph

Post Edited (Bellyfull) : 6/19/2015 5:04:02 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/19/2015 11:00 AM (GMT 0)
Copied from site... www.medhelp.org/posts/Hepatitis-C/high-blood-ammonia-levels/show/1131210

Have had 2 weeks of baaad reality seperation,bad anxiety and panic attacks,confusion(more than usual).I quit eating. Gastro prescribed xanax T.I.D. Someone mentioned elevated blood ammonia levels. I'm feeling much better now. But I looked up Hyperammonemia and my symptoms were exactly like what I read. Confusion,anxiety, no appetite ect. I'm on week 45 fo tx,and like I said I'm 75% back to normal. I see Gastro on 1/04 and i'm going to discuss this with him then. I was just wondering if anyone had any experiences with this. Thanx



I was diagnosed with AutoImmune Cholangitis about 5 years ago. The Doctor now says it has turned into cirrohisis. My GI Doctor ran an ammonia test on me and said my level was high. He put me on lactulose. I started taking it three days ago. First day, terrible cramps, gas and bloating. Yesterday some diarriha and stomach pain. Today just waiting to see what is in store. Is anyone out there on this medication? Can you tell me is it always like this? Is there anything you can do to work and take this medicine at the same time? Thanks for any help you can give.

***These are just a few examples of the problems that ammonia can create... THERE ARE TO MANY TO IGNORE!

Lyme and Ammonia...
davidjernigan.blogspot.com/2015/05/eliminating-ammonia-toxicity-in-lyme.html
Posted 6/19/2015 12:23 PM (GMT 0)
I believe that ammonia production is the main problem for Lyme patients. I believe it causes the neuro issues and if ammonia production is decreased, the Lyme patients will get better. It has worked for me and some prominent physicians believe the same.
Posted 6/19/2015 3:32 PM (GMT 0)
Is there an accurate test for ammonia? Or is it just something you should try to detox and see if you feel better?
Posted 6/19/2015 3:40 PM (GMT 0)
Is the david jernigan link saying that, if ammonia is a problem, drinking lemon juice in water, which we do to make our bodies more alkaline, is going to cause even more problems?

I'm confused, because I thought drinking the lemon juice in water was good for detox.
Posted 6/19/2015 5:35 PM (GMT 0)
~Sarah... there is a test

How to test for ammonia accumulation:

There is a Serum Ammonia and a urine ammonia test that can be performed by your physician, however due to the fact that the Lyme-induced ammonia is not a systemic problem, but is in localized areas, the lab tests may not be as reliable to detect the presence of ammonia.
Direct Resonance Testing:

To perform a direct resonance test the doctor will need a vial of pure ammonia. A muscle strength challenge should be performed to identify a strong muscle, preferably using the deltoid muscle with the patient’s thumb pointing towards the feet.

The muscle should “lock” or immediately be be strong when challenged, without being spongy. The doctor should use only the amount of force necessary to feel that the muscle being tested engages without being spongy.

Once a good strong muscle has been identified, hold the vial of ammonia over various areas of the brain, testing to see if the previously strong muscle goes weak when the ammonia is held over any area.

Due to the temporary neuromuscular interference caused by the harmonic resonance of ammonia in the vial with the ammonia present in the brain, the strong muscle will go weak.

If the test is positive all over the body then there is more than just Lyme infection going on, since LD-induce ammonia accumulations seem to only affect the liver, heart, brain, and jaws.




All of the ammonia-related pathological changes predispose these individuals to cerebral allergies, due to alterations in the blood brain barrier, subsequently allowing larger molecules, such as common dietary amino acids, to pass through to the brain.

Neurotransmitter receptors and function is impaired and possibly the most common symptom – altered brain energy metabolism leading to cognitive brain dysfunctions, the total fatigue of the mind when forced to read, talk, or think for extended periods.
Posted 6/19/2015 5:49 PM (GMT 0)
~Celeste

I personally do not drink lemon water right now...

I am addressing my worst symptom... which is brain fog...

"cognitive brain dysfunctions, the total fatigue of the mind when forced to read, talk, or think for extended periods".

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Until i get a handle on this... i do not have the mental capacity to remember any details... or to follow any given protocol.


*I do have other symptoms that are quite difficult at times... neck,shoulder,carpal tunnel and sometimes horrible stabbing knee pain...
Those are next on my list to deal with...along with general weakness.

And then the "little" annoyances that might remain are next on the list....
tingly sensations,insomnia,constipation,headaches,sensitivities to hot/cold,
profuse sweating,etc...
Posted 6/19/2015 10:32 PM (GMT 0)
Wow Bellyfull you have a double whammy with both the Lyme and Autoimmune Cholangititis that has caused cirrhosis. No wonder you are still having the brain fog. You really need to protect and heal your liver. Absolutely no Vicodin or anything containing acetaminophen, it is really toxic to your liver. Or any other high ammonia foods. The lactulose contains a synthetic sugar which is hypertonic in your colon, it draws fluid from the surrounding area into the colon to make it isotonic, pulls the ammonia with it out of the body. Which is why it seems like diarrhea, the stools are liquid from the extra fluid.

I would say to take the Lactulose as the MD prescribes, it is important to bring it down. And concentrate on taking supplements that are liver healing. You will feel better when your ammonia levels come down. You must get it down to prevent hepatic encephalopathy. It is not pleasant, but the Lactulose is necessary. I am so sorry you are dealing with so much on your plate!

I have not looked into other things to reduce the hepatic inflammation, am interested to hear what you find out. Since you need to come off the Vicodin immediately, see if your MD will give you something without Tylenol in it for now. It may even be beneficial to use some cannabis oil suppositories if you are in a state that allows for medical cannabis. Much safer for your pain control, and taking it in suppository form bypasses the liver and works more to heal the body from the small amount I have read about it.

Take care and may you heal soon.
Posted 6/19/2015 11:13 PM (GMT 0)
Acetaminophen is mostly conjugated during metabolism and without sufficient NAC, toxicity can occur. Methylation is important once again.

I am curious as to how many people have ammonia toxicity and eat very little protein. The problem with ammonia is that it is an issue with nitrogen, pH, and a decreased efficiency of the entire methylation pathway. To get ammonia production instead of urea formation, you simply can't process all of the available nitrogen on hand. Where does this excess nitrogen come from? It comes from the protein you eat AND it also comes IMO, from the excessive polyamine production that occurs because of chronic infection due to LPS detection by the immune system.
We have to have protein to sustain B-12 and methionine levels but too much causes more ammonia formation. There is a pH problem as well. During the course of chronic infection, acids are formed by the body. Ammonia is extremely alkaline and could possibly be formed to offset the extra acid. There is a sweet spot in between too much acid and acidic foods and too much ammonia and basic foods. Supplementing the gene mutations along the methylation pathway will help but may not be enough. If it is not enough, you may have metals blocking the pathways and they would need to be removed. Since viruses and bacteria can sequester metals, your pathogen load will need to be reduced. If you try something and it makes you feel worse or crappy, it could be the metals moving or it could be from methylation dysfunction. It is paramount that you get the methylation pathway working or supplemented before addressing pathogen load. This will help decrease glutamate levels (which contains nitrogen and is acidic.) Getting glutamate levels down is the first step to getting better IMO and according to Yasko.
Posted 6/20/2015 2:28 AM (GMT 0)
The muscle tests sounds like something a primary would not know about? What type of doctor ordered in for you? Is there any documentation about it? If the links, already give info about that don't worry about answering, I'll get to looking at them tomorrow.

As far as teaching hospital, you should never ever use a teaching hospital. Everyone thinks that you'll get the best care there because they have the best doctors. Not true at all. Most of your care is done by medical students who no less about your condition. The Attendings use them as workhorses and only spend 5 minutes with you. I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia. I made an appointment at Duke Hospital and waited 7 months. I went there for like three months and they told me to go see my primary. They had used me to teach their students and when I was no longer effective they showed me the door. The major problem with doctors in teaching hospitals is they can't afford to treat patients for which there is no cure or no operation they can do. It makes them failures, at least that's their mindset.

We have a Dad from Boy Scouts who is actually a doctor that works at Duke, but he does clinical studies instead of seeing patients. My husband knew that he has used a CM specialist in the area. We bumped into him and asked the name of the CM specialist. He said he would send it but we got into a talk about Lyme. I had already told my husband that I was thinking about using a CM Specialist because finding a dr that would treat with antibiotics in my state.

Dr Jemsek originally had is practice here until he was brought in front of the Medical Board for using non-standard treatments. They suspended his license for a year but sustained it as long as he stuck to current treatments. It was all that was needed for BCBS and another insurance company to take everything he had including his practice. Needless to say, he left the state. The only other MD doesn't accept insurance and it's pretty much his way or the highway. If you question him then he kicks you out. He also requires that a deposit is placed before the appointment is made and the remainder has to be paid in full 2 weeks before the appointment.

He also doesn't care if you have the Ingenex test done or not and doesn't order it at all. I understand that Lyme is a clinical diagnosis, but it is helpful if you have a positive (reading all the bands and not just the few bands the CDC looks at.

Even though I explained to my husband that I was thinking about using CM if I could find one in the area who has successfully treated Lyme, he was still uneasy. I explained that before Big Pharm (at least 100 years ago) medication came from recipes created by herbalist based on the actions of the herbs they worked with. CM has thousands of years of experience. My husband asked our friend, "She should go to Duke or UNC for treatment, right? The dad said under no circumstances should we go to either hospital. They would never believe it was Lyme. As a matter of fact one of the most vocal/prolific writer doctors against chronic Lyme is a Duke doctor.

It was interesting because the Dad asked me some questions and one was "do you have the whole ear pain thing too?". I said yes. It was stunning because no one knows that I've had ear pain, not even my husband. I never mentioned it because I just assumed it was do to changes in weather. I now know what my kid felt like as babies and toddlers with chronic ear infections.

Night all, Kim.
Posted 6/20/2015 4:05 AM (GMT 0)
Hey guys... i want you to know that i appreciate your input VERY MUCH...
I just need to point out a few things.

Above you will notice the first post is about my experience... then there are two posts where i stated that it was copied from the site... and i posted the site.

I do not have serious issues with my liver right now... That I Am Aware Of.
The ultrasound did show a lesion which did bother me... And The Doc Said It Was Not A Major Concern.

My point is that ammonia can LEAD to serious problems if it is not addressed.

As far as the Vicoden ... even though it is cut with the lowest amount of
acetaminophen (325/7.5) ... And i am taking the lowest dose that i can tolerate (that does not remove the pain...only takes the edge off) and the Doc has offered to up the dose.

I am not willing to risk it... because my instincts tell me that it is somehow causing damage to my liver (even tho a lesion is apparently not a big deal to the doc)

I would love it if CBD was legal in my state... i have been waiting for the law to pass...the bill was signed last month ... i am in PA.

I am ready to move now to a legal state for marijuana because i just do not trust mainstream doctors at all anymore.

My Pain Mgmt Doc recently took early retirement... because he was fed up with "the lobbyist handling medical care instead of the doctors"<his words.

He was the only Doc that i did trust because he tried to have very honest conversations with me... even though he is "restricted by the government."

I had a previous accident which resulted in a condition called "traumatic spondylolisthesis" L5S1... i cannot be upright without pain meds (which i resent... and try not to resent) I do not want to be bed-ridden with pain...
I can NOT handle that emotionally.

I have already had one 360 spine fusion (without hardware,because of damage to pedicule) which failed...and of course they would like to go
back again and "try to fix it" "with no guarantees".... to which i had replied "NO THANK YOU!".

I originally had the accident in 1998 in GA... the spine surgery at "The New England Spine Institute" I was on 800 ibuprofen before surgery...then required vicoden after surgery .... I would not even take Tylenol before this... i still don't take OTC Tylenol.

The article just motivates me to make some life changes... so that i can stop taking the pain meds.

I did state in the beginning that i am addressing the ammonia with the Anti-tox.

* I did not state that i am also on a diet that helps to avoid the ammonia issues as much as possible... everything that i read by Dr J has reinforced my instincts...that i am on the right path so far.

*THank you all very for your input... it all helps so much :)

Post Edited (Bellyfull) : 6/20/2015 4:11:56 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/20/2015 6:23 AM (GMT 0)
Oh, thank goodness, Bellyful I did not put that together, you are not suffering form the cholangititis/cirrhosis! You scared me! What a horrible combination that would be with Lyme! Sorry for the misinterpretation of your post.
Posted 6/20/2015 11:21 AM (GMT 0)
~GKmom & Sarah

There are other methods for testing... a few examples are posted under this little paragraph, (the one stated in the article is something two people can do at home...just to see what may happen...and to satisfy the question... if maybe further testing is needed).

/www.directlabs.com/Default.aspx?&catid=84&tabid=55

www.accesalabs.com/metametrix?gclid=CjwKEAjwnpSsBRDH3pT2-7q55R4SJABRiNyTtTVS78u0aOSCM9gu8CBgx_JsIlHcDiWU3RpQPckmtBoCowDw_wcB

/www.gdx.net/core/interpretive-guides/Organix-IG.pdf


~Lighterbeing

Thank you so much for showing concern the way you do... it is very meaningful to me.


~Georgia Hunter

I find it necessary to Google sometimes... in order to interpret... because you seem to have a higher IQ and are well versed on many health matters.
If it is because of a particular training/schooling program... or perhaps a
natural propensity. It is good to be motivated to stretch my intellectual capacity... in order to understand some of your terminology. I believe your input is a valuable resource. To answer your curiosity above "I am curious as to how many people have ammonia toxicity and eat very little protein". As for me...I have been 90% vegetarian and always struggled to get enough protein... which i reluctantly received from grass-fed meats...which made it seem obvious that Lyme & Co was the culprit. Especially after reading Dr J's Book as well.

~For anyone else that may be interested to know... i have been addressing the ammonia issue for 6 days now... i continually feel better each day... it is coming in small increments... but it is good to have progress with this particular issue.

***It is my hope in starting this thread...with this topic...that others will
take a look at the Ammonia issue in their own treatment. :-)

Post Edited (Bellyfull) : 6/20/2015 5:28:31 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/21/2015 3:50 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you Bellyfull! That is exactly what you did for me.

Doctors don't know or understand everything, especially new symptoms. I went in for a visit once and told my doctor that the bottoms of my feet were so sore when I woke up I would hobble for 15-30minutes. He looked at me like I had grown a new head. Then I got researching about Lyme, found DR B's checklist and knew I was on the right path.

Having everyone here share so many things is extremely helpful especially when you've been sick as long as I have (first symptoms 35 yrs ago). You forget what normal is.

I apologize if I seem to only care about me when asking for information. I do understand that we are all sick and even if I don't say it I feel for all of you. I'm new to the idea of Lyme and it seems to fit my time line and symptoms way better than Fibromyalgia, so I've been aggressively looking for info. Sorry if that seems as if I'm only out for me. Sometimes I'm a bull in a china shop.

So sorry your pain Doc took early retirement. It's like the death of a loved on. The you start looking a ahead and it's how will I ever survive. I swear I could deal with my spouse's death easier than my doctor's. That is so wrong, when our doctors become the central figures in our lives.

AS far as finding a new doc, we were going to be moving from NC to CA and my doctor said that I need ed to go to the medical board and get a list of names for Doctors that were in good stands. Then call them and speak to the office manager and ask questions. Question like how do they feel about writing pain medications? muscle relations? sleep medication? really any thing you need and then he would write a latter state "This patient was with me X years and have taken Vicodin for Y number of years with no problems. She has never asked for a refill before in was necessary.

One last thing, a new drug has come out or will come out that'll not include aceytaminifin. It's just coming out. I asked my doctor about it because it has great potential. My doc said it was at least 5 years away from the mail stream.

Kim
Posted 6/21/2015 4:37 PM (GMT 0)
"Thank you Bellyfull! That is exactly what you did for me."

~GKmom... the above statement means the world to me!

I sometimes feel uncomfortable when starting a thread...
*especially a warning thread. I think "Who am i to be doing this?"
But something in me says to "trudge forth"... and still i don't know
how it may be perceived.

But then to see comments that feel validating (like from GH)
are very helpful.

And your questions regarding your life situation are very helpful.
For me and for others reading and wondering about themselves,
Its all good!

And then when you make a statement that implies that my effort
was helpful... Gosh Gosh Gosh... that feeds my spirit in ways
that i cannot articulate.

Thank you GK (((HUGS)))
Posted 6/21/2015 7:16 PM (GMT 0)

Bellyfull said...
~GKmom & Sarah

There are other methods for testing... a few examples are posted under this little paragraph, (the one stated in the article is something two people can do at home...just to see what may happen...and to satisfy the question... if maybe further testing is needed).

/www.directlabs.com/Default.aspx?&catid=84&tabid=55

www.accesalabs.com/metametrix?gclid=CjwKEAjwnpSsBRDH3pT2-7q55R4SJABRiNyTtTVS78u0aOSCM9gu8CBgx_JsIlHcDiWU3RpQPckmtBoCowDw_wcB

/www.gdx.net/core/interpretive-guides/Organix-IG.pdf


~Lighterbeing

Thank you so much for showing concern the way you do... it is very meaningful to me.


~Georgia Hunter

I find it necessary to Google sometimes... in order to interpret... because you seem to have a higher IQ and are well versed on many health matters.
If it is because of a particular training/schooling program... or perhaps a
natural propensity. It is good to be motivated to stretch my intellectual capacity... in order to understand some of your terminology. I believe your input is a valuable resource. To answer your curiosity above "I am curious as to how many people have ammonia toxicity and eat very little protein". As for me...I have been 90% vegetarian and always struggled to get enough protein... which i reluctantly received from grass-fed meats...which made it seem obvious that Lyme & Co was the culprit. Especially after reading Dr J's Book as well.

~For anyone else that may be interested to know... i have been addressing the ammonia issue for 6 days now... i continually feel better each day... it is coming in small increments... but it is good to have progress with this particular issue.

***It is my hope in starting this thread...with this topic...that others will
take a look at the Ammonia issue in their own treatment. :-)


Thanks. My IQ isn't higher, I was just uniquely trained in high school and I try real hard. In order for me to get well, I had to learn on my own what was going on with my body. I had always hoped that when I say something that no one understands, everyone will look it up and they can learn something. Knowledge is the key to getting better IMO.
Posted 6/21/2015 8:57 PM (GMT 0)
Bellyfull,

There is no implication about it. Your answers, comments and posts are all helpful.

For a long time, everyone on these forums was dependent on our doctors and their knowledge. We couldn't read medical books. Everything was viewed through the lens of our primary doctor and whoever he or she referred us to. If we were lucky a friend, mentioned their or their children's ailments and we learned.

Both my kids were diagnosed with ADHD. When I was trying to figure out what was going on with my daughter, a friend said maybe she has ADHD. I said no way. We knew the H part was accurate because she spent all her free time using our living room furniture for gymnastics. The first thought though is she has no problem concentrating. I can't get her away from the tv. But we had the internet and I was educated enough to know there is a document called DSM, so I went looking and found the description of ADHD. I was completely shocked. The passage described to my daughter exactly. After that I learned a lot. My husband also has ADHD and my son (now 15) was also eventually diagnosed. My daughter had a lot of difficulty with learning until we got it under control. Both my kids had struggles with their weight because the medications are appetite suppressants.

The point though is we worked our way through with our pediatrician and I talked to anyone about it. This was a time when medicating for ADHD was frowned upon and my pediatrician suggested we only do it during the school week. I decided that the inevitable fights were more damaging than the medication. It was suggested that as an accommodation, I reduce the amount of homework my child was given and I said NO. My rationale was that when she went to college (although students can have that accommodation in college as well) and on to a career, he boss wasn't going to say oh you have ADHD I'll give you less work. She's learned to focus her energy into activities that are suitable for the job she's decided she wanted. She's now graduated college and has a seasonal job and is waiting to be promoted to full time. There's no question they want her, it just time until the a position opens up.

In talking about my kids and their struggles, I wasn't putting them down. I was passing along that knowledge. I rarely care what others think to the point of embarrassing my husband. I know for a fact that my talking has helped several kids. One boy was in middle school and having lots of trouble, the teachers and parents didn't know what to do with him. The mom asked lots of questions and I asked delicate questions. She decided to talk to her pediatrician and they put him on a trial of medication. He was a different child and they never looked back. The last I knew he was doing great in school and at home.

So I feel that as someone who benefited from information given to me by others, I can pay it forward by being honest in an attempt to help others. I don't think anything anyone can say on here is wrong, unless it is done in an attempt to be mean to others. It's all about intent.

People should read the posts and determine if it is helpful to them. Warning people about something is only done with best intentions. We are all adults and should understand that.

The symptoms we have are mystifying even to our doctors. They don't have time to figure out everything. We help each other and as long as the intent is to help, you should do it with no concerns. Those people who judge you for it aren't worth your time and shouldn't bother you.

Two more weeks until I get my results! Yeah! Isn't it completely backwards that we want a positive result?

Also, Thank you to the many people who kindly answered my endless questions. I consider you all my dearest friends and look forward to many more conversations.
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply