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Detoxing can make you HERX, right?

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Posted 7/28/2015 8:32 PM (GMT 0)
So..... detoxing can make you Herx, too, right? Is that correct? I started the foot baths this past weekend (just w/ the 2 cups Epsom, but have the peroxide now to add tonight) and I have noticed that some of my symptoms are quite a bit worse. Is that normal/to be expected?

I cannot say for sure that it's the detoxing, 'cause my symptoms vary a lot/wax/wane throughout the day, etc...
I suspect this may be the detoxing as a cause, though.


I likely have a high bacterial load after this many years of misdiagnosis.

LOL wonder what will happen now that I've added the Milk thistle seed extract? LOL.

I am assuming noticing a HERX is a good thing?

Appreciate all thoughts on this detox Herx issue for someone like "me"...
Posted 7/28/2015 9:29 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah, that's about it - stirs up the toxins, worsens certain symptoms, etc. You're supposed to feel better, after they've been pushed out.

If they persist, I guess your toxin load is just too high, and not everything can come out at once. Do what you can, keep chipping away.

Noticing herxes is a good thing. I'd take a herx over nothing. Well, at least in the context of being sick with Lyme. I'd rather know that things are working, rather than guessing, hoping. It's no fun not knowing - "getting better, getting sicker, hit a plateau?"

Anyway, good luck.
Posted 7/28/2015 9:47 PM (GMT 0)
Alimom - my symptoms wax and wane throughout the day, too....and usually (not always - just to screw with my head) - they are the worst late afternoon/early evening.

But, when I herx. I feel crappy all day or most of the day...and sometimes for a few days in a row...it will even affect my sleep at times.

For me, detox has never made me feel worse. In the very beginning when I first started treatment, I didn't feel they made me feel better...but I think I was always waiting for the herx...or the flares...and then I'd do the detoxing.

I have learned that the detoxing must continue on the good days - everyday - we must detox...if you wait for a herx...it's like closing the barn door after the horse got out. - you're then playing catch up to get ahead of the toxins....if that makes sense.

So - now I make detoxing a priority ....and always remind myself to do it ....always grab that glass of water with lemon...make sure - even though I'm feeling good to have my epsom salt baths (dry brush first), always get my exercise in...have a nap when I'm tired... etc. etc.
Posted 7/29/2015 1:18 PM (GMT 0)
I agree with Girlie on it being a priority even on days when you feel good - which is a lot harder than it sounds. And on the days when you feel at your worst? Well, that's even harder to get up and do those things that you need to do to detox - because you already feel icky - but that's when you need it the most.

It's the toxins that drive our symptoms the most. So controlling the toxin load will help you control your symptoms.

If you have impaired detoxing pathways in your body - then things get 'backed up' and it can take a while to level out. But we have to keep chipping away at it, as Antonio said.
Posted 7/29/2015 7:22 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks Traveler, Girlie, and Antonio.
These toxins have to be from the 3 abx meds discontinued temporarily in June, altho' I am still on plaquenil...

I am really trying with the detox, having JUST learned about it after being on three meds x Jan-June... now just Plaquenil...

I probably ought to clarify all this. I am always up and going but I NEVER can truly walk. I don't drive now, and I certainly don't go out- too dangerous. To ambulate, I grab walls, the bars hubby has installed for me EVERYWHERE, I grab the walker, the furniture, etc... and walk pretty much bent dbl even with the walker. (Legs too weak in upper thighs to stand straight I think- but I'm an RN and not a physio, LOL)
Lately (past 4 mos) 2-3 steps even with the walker are too many. I can barely bend the (R) knee and I also drag that foot. All of this is now "normal for me" ugh- has become worse as described since Jan when LLMD started the meds. I have had trouble walking a LOT since 2013- but it is drastically (easily 50x) worse since beginning Lyme rx . I've never had days where this is better since several years ago-- I havfe just been going downhill. The Lyme meds seemed to kick that process into high gear. I am really failing, as the older folks say. ;)

I DID have ONE day 2 weeks ago where it seemed a little less awful. And everyone, my kids and hubby, mentioned I was "getting around better" and was "a little faster." It was lovely. It has never happened since Jan, or again since that one day.

Pretty bad- I hate to seem negative!! The kids need me and there is a lot to do, so I'm on it. I can't carry the water for my foot baths so hubby always helps me with it after he gets home. I'm up at 6 Am with him and our kids (one has special needs, as you know,) so doing this in the AM before he leaves isn't an option either. Have to try to figure this out better, it's very hard in our kind of special situation. We have to do smthg though. I understand I ought to have three a day??

Would it work doing one foot bath at 4 PM and one at 9-ish?? Or is that too close?
Thanks... ~ Ali
Posted 7/29/2015 7:33 PM (GMT 0)
Alimom - You have such a challenge - in your situation...I feel for you!

I can't see why it would hurt to do one at 4:00 and again around 9:00....


Are you drinking lot of water, squeezing fresh lemon into some glasses?

Have you thought about purchasing the Nutramedix Burbur and Pinella? You might find they help...I really like them. You can order them from iHerb.

Also, are you able to rest during the day...or is that not even an option in your situation? Do you have help with your child who has special needs? Does he nap during the day....

I'm just thinking with what you have on your plate, you must be feeling tired during the day...and a rest would do a lot of good.
Posted 7/29/2015 7:53 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Alimom. I don't have any suggestions on detoxing, and I don't post much, but I wanted to let you know that you and I seem to share the exact symptoms and I have never come across anyone else with Lyme that presents this way.

I am also Canadian, come from a military background (father in the army), was misdiagnosed with MS, and have serious walking problems EXACTLY as you describe with a knee that won't bend, foot that drags, and too weak to stand upright. Only difference is it's my left leg that is affected.

I have a CDC positive IGM from Igenex and some days that is the only thing that reassures me that I am dealing with Lyme and not something else. I have been on abx in the past and will be restarting next week. Fingers crossed for positive results.

Just wanted to say hi and you're not alone with this odd constellation of symptoms.

~ Volyme
Posted 7/30/2015 1:29 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Alimom,

I hope you feel better soon. Here is a list of different methods of detoxing. Maybe something will help you.

http://www.tiredoflyme.com/detox-methods.html
Posted 7/30/2015 1:44 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Alimom,

I'm new here, but not so new to Lyme. I just started detoxing after reading about it on this forum. I started out with the Epsom salt foot bath and felt ok. I decided to try a full bath and it definitely made me herx bad...I'm OK now, just have that tired achy feeling. I'm going to try the foot bath again and see what happens...I too didn't realize it would make me herx.

I was officially diagnosed June 2014 by Igenex after spending months searching for a physician who would even test me. Many of my symptoms have resolved, I'm still very tired and achy at times. I'm hoping with the detoxing I'll be better. Hope all how's well with your detoxing...not something we want to do, but all of us here just want our health back.

crystyne
Posted 7/30/2015 2:54 AM (GMT 0)
I took epsom salt baths for years before I knew I had Lyme and I always felt better. And I also did not smell when I would sweat like other people, I actually smelled good when I sweated so I think it is a good detoxer. I took them I think about every other day. Then I stopped for maybe a year or two then started again and I felt better when I would take the baths. Then I stopped for a few months and when I found out I had Lyme I started epsom salt baths again and I would feel better. Then baths got too painful because of my joints and muscles and such so I started doing foot baths but then I stopped doing it all for a few months.

Then I started again with the epsom salt foot baths and it made my legs hurt so bad! So I did not have herx type reactions for many years then all of a sudden this year I started having them. I don't know if it is a good or bad thing to have pains after detoxing, but I thought I would just let you know what I experienced. I stopped the foot baths but I will try again later.

I also got leg pain sooo bad from drinking a tiny bit of dandelion root tea (like extremely horrible ridiculously bad pain). Drinking clay makes me feel better and does not cause me any extra pains, so maybe you could try that. I drink it from living clay co. I think I drink 1 tsp at night an hour before and after eating. I would drink it in the morning too but I get too hungry when I wake up.
Posted 7/30/2015 3:10 AM (GMT 0)
What it comes down to is what your toxin loads and your routines will allow. Try these suggestions carefully and don't rush this. Take your time in treatment too since you need to be functional.

It might drag this out a bit for you, but pushing through faster could keep you from doing those things that you need to do for - in particular - your special needs child.

I don't remember the exact ages of your kids, but it seems that they were old enough that they could be of help bring you some things to detox or whatever. Enlist their help any time you can.

***Boy, you sure are right, Girlie!! (commenting below) I did NOT mean to say that her birthday was dying!!! LOL! Gotta love autocorrect!!!
Posted 7/30/2015 4:04 AM (GMT 0)
Trav - you must have auto-correct on - I don't think you meant to say 'your birthday dying'.. wink
Posted 7/30/2015 5:08 AM (GMT 0)
Alimom, I just wanted to chime in here and tell you that you are a hero .... And while I am certain that you would rather be feeling different, the perseverance you are showing and desire to get well is inspiring ......

This is extremely difficult - but in getting thru this, you will have earned the honor of hero for a lifetime

Hang in there, there are corners you will turn - promise
Posted 7/30/2015 12:11 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
Alimom - You have such a challenge - in your situation...I feel for you!

I can't see why it would hurt to do one at 4:00 and again around 9:00....


Are you drinking lot of water, squeezing fresh lemon into some glasses?

Have you thought about purchasing the Nutramedix Burbur and Pinella? You might find they help...I really like them. You can order them from iHerb.

Also, are you able to rest during the day...or is that not even an option in your situation? Do you have help with your child who has special needs? Does he nap during the day....

I'm just thinking with what you have on your plate, you must be feeling tired during the day...and a rest would do a lot of good.

Hi Girlie- Thanks so much, appreciate the response. We have a routine that we all follow here, everyone is a great help. The routine adds structure for our youngest, Noah, 13, (who has autism) and makes it easier for all of us, Noah included. :) I always say "I developed the system and they're all helping to make it work." (I feel so useless, that when I see how the system and routines I created over ther past 7 years are working, I feel less so much better and less useless! LOL.) We have GREAT kids. 3 of our 4 live at home. They are ages 20 (FT college student, working FT), 14 and 13. All boys. Our daughter lives in the next town. She is 21 and works FT as well.

Great- awesome that we can do the 4-ish and 9-ish foot baths. :) Will put that into effect now that I know they are not too closely spaced.

Yes, I drink tons of water, always with the lemon. I started the water habit 2 years ago as I was NOT drinking much at all, and I knew better---that was awful. So that was a great move. LOL Have been adding lemon at recommendation of my good friend since Jan. YAY for that since I understand from you all that this is perfect. I love the taste.

Re: Nutramedix Burbur and Pinella, I have listed it on your recommendation and will read about it and see about ordering and adding it ASAP. Thank You.

re: Rest during the day: I can't but it is not a problem. I sleep pretty darned well at night, thk God, and so does Noah--and I am never, ever tired. It's one of the weird things about me that does not fit wither MS Or Lyme. (I'm so THANKFUL!!!!) My legs and arms (which support me as my legs DON'T) get pretty tired, SO.... I group all my activities ie: Noah's special diet work when I am in kitchen, picking things up (or getting someone else to) as I "go" and notice that smthg needs doing, etc... and have gotten pretty good at it.

The fact that NOTHING extra gets done and I feel like the house is falling-down-messy just has to be ignored at times. Well, MOST of the time. My kids tell me our house isn't messy but I have relaxed my standards HUGELY by necessity and I feel it's gotten pretty awful. The main things are done though. My kids and hubby help a LOT!! I am hoping things get better and I can "catch up" but I AM NOT pushing myself as that would be counter-productive. I know this but GOSH it's hard to pretend I don't see things, and to just LEAVE them- it feels awful, but I can't do them...LOL!

I don't go to bed and rest in daytime, as I can't, but I also do not feel any tiredness except my legs and arms...-- but I do sit a lot, fold laundry, work on advocacy stuff/calls, do work on 'puter, etc... etc... I sit on my walker's seat when working in kitchen too.

I get a little break this week from 9-2-- Noah is at Day Camp with his svc dog (Autism Assistance Dog Guide, Argo) and is having a BLAST. Our eldest son is studying Human Svcs at college and netted a FT job in the Autism Day Camp program for 8 weeks this summer and so happens to be working with Noah and Argo this week. It's so awesome!! Bryan tells me that Noah is having a ball. it's a special, local day camp program for kids with Autism Spectrum Disorder. Noah and Argo go back for another week of Day Camp late August. So that's really nice. It's so good for him! He has been asking for "DAY CAMP?" since school ended June 30, LOL. yeah

Post Edited (Alimom4) : 8/25/2015 12:03:00 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/30/2015 12:29 PM (GMT 0)

Volyme said...
Hi Alimom. I don't have any suggestions on detoxing, and I don't post much, but I wanted to let you know that you and I seem to share the exact symptoms and I have never come across anyone else with Lyme that presents this way.

I am also Canadian, come from a military background (father in the army), was misdiagnosed with MS, and have serious walking problems EXACTLY as you describe with a knee that won't bend, foot that drags, and too weak to stand upright. Only difference is it's my left leg that is affected.

I have a CDC positive IGM from Igenex and some days that is the only thing that reassures me that I am dealing with Lyme and not something else. I have been on abx in the past and will be restarting next week. Fingers crossed for positive results.

Just wanted to say hi and you're not alone with this odd constellation of symptoms.

~ Volyme



Hi Volyme...HOLY HANNAH!! I was blown away reading that. TY so much for posting. My LLMD says he's never seen anyone react the way I did ... I am so thankful you have posted.

Additionally, we share another commonality... I lived 5 years in AB with hubby (Cold Lake... 4 Wing... RCAF) -- before all my symptoms started. (I am a NB girl who fell in LOVE with AB.)

Like you, in the midst of all this, lately my positive IGM from Igenex "is the only thing that reassures me that I am dealing with Lyme and not something else." You said that perfectly.
And-- as you might have guessed-- another commonality...mine is also a positive IgM!! (Mine's Igenex positive, not CDC pos but I understand it is just as valid...)

It's weird that we have the same (unusual) severe walking issues and so many other similarities. Hmmmm...

My email is in my profile, should you like to correspond. I'm not a negative Nellie but would LOVE to know someone with "our" issues. I promise I wouldn't bring anyone down if we were keeping in touch. LOL I'm so pleased to have rec'd your "note" here. Me and hubby were both blown away at the similarities this AM WOW....
astounding.

Yes-- I will keep good thoughts for you and fingers crossed for positive results on the soon-to-be-restarted Abx.

turn turn
Posted 7/30/2015 12:38 PM (GMT 0)

bluebyyou said...
Hi Alimom,

I hope you feel better soon. Here is a list of different methods of detoxing. Maybe something will help you.

http://www.tiredoflyme.com/detox-methods.html

Hi bluebyyou~! TY so much- I like that site and have been referring to it. It's a good one. I appreciate the input and good wishes... :)
Posted 7/30/2015 12:47 PM (GMT 0)

Crystyne said...
Hi Alimom,

I'm new here, but not so new to Lyme. I just started detoxing after reading about it on this forum. I started out with the Epsom salt foot bath and felt ok. I decided to try a full bath and it definitely made me herx bad...I'm OK now, just have that tired achy feeling. I'm going to try the foot bath again and see what happens...I too didn't realize it would make me herx.

I was officially diagnosed June 2014 by Igenex after spending months searching for a physician who would even test me. Many of my symptoms have resolved, I'm still very tired and achy at times. I'm hoping with the detoxing I'll be better. Hope all how's well with your detoxing...not something we want to do, but all of us here just want our health back.

crystyne

That makes total sense. Glad you're OK and were able to get tested and get a result. Here's to good detoxing for us both!! :) Thanks for your note.
Posted 7/30/2015 12:51 PM (GMT 0)

yellow_daisy said...
I took epsom salt baths for years before I knew I had Lyme and I always felt better. And I also did not smell when I would sweat like other people, I actually smelled good when I sweated so I think it is a good detoxer. I took them I think about every other day. Then I stopped for maybe a year or two then started again and I felt better when I would take the baths. Then I stopped for a few months and when I found out I had Lyme I started epsom salt baths again and I would feel better. Then baths got too painful because of my joints and muscles and such so I started doing foot baths but then I stopped doing it all for a few months.

Then I started again with the epsom salt foot baths and it made my legs hurt so bad! So I did not have herx type reactions for many years then all of a sudden this year I started having them. I don't know if it is a good or bad thing to have pains after detoxing, but I thought I would just let you know what I experienced. I stopped the foot baths but I will try again later.

I also got leg pain sooo bad from drinking a tiny bit of dandelion root tea (like extremely horrible ridiculously bad pain). Drinking clay makes me feel better and does not cause me any extra pains, so maybe you could try that. I drink it from living clay co. I think I drink 1 tsp at night an hour before and after eating. I would drink it in the morning too but I get too hungry when I wake up.

That is all REALLY good information-- Thanks yellow_daisy for taking the time to post this. I appreciate it and added a cpl things to my detox list. :)
Posted 7/30/2015 1:14 PM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...
What it comes down to is what your birthday dying and your routines will allow. Try these suggestions carefully and don't rush this. Take your time in treatment too since you need to be functional.

It might drag this out a bit for you, but pushing through faster could keep you from doing those things that you need to do for - in particular - your special needs child.

I don't remember the exact ages of your kids, but it seems that they were old enough that they could be of help bring you some things to detox or whatever. Enlist their help any time you can.

Hi Trav-- thks so much for the words of wisdom. Of course I just want this over with and to get better. I promise not to rush too much- TY for reminding me. I know it's important not to make myself worse by doing that!
Kids (4) are 21 down to 13. Our youngest is the guy with special needs. He is a sweetie- all the kids are. Our 21 year old doesn't live with us. She is in next small town. They all do MORE than their part to help. So proud of them. (Have 1 girl and 3 boys.)
My 14 year old son is bringing me the water for my foot bath in a few min!! He said he could help me with a daytime one!! :) So that is a HUGE help.

TY again for all ur help!!
Posted 7/30/2015 1:33 PM (GMT 0)

Tano said...
Alimom, I just wanted to chime in here and tell you that you are a hero .... And while I am certain that you would rather be feeling different, the perseverance you are showing and desire to get well is inspiring ......

This is extremely difficult - but in getting thru this, you will have earned the honor of hero for a lifetime

Hang in there, there are corners you will turn - promise

Oh my goodness Tano... TY...

I feel like I'M not the hero, but Pete and our kids ARE.

They seriously keep it going smoothly here. Pete does everything I can't - all the driving, the groceries, fetching and carrying... plus he works!! Never complains. NEVER! He also does the harder things at home like helping get Noah washed-up in the AM... I do the stuff I can that's easier and is a better fit for me. .. all the communications stuff about the kids, school, advocacy work, Noah's special diet prep ... and I developed the schedule, systems & routines we use. I am so proud that they work for us and that everyone cooperates so well.

We manage to get it all done. I worry a lot about what DOESN'T get done cause I just cannot do it and can't expect others to pitch in even more, though! LOL BUT-- that said-- we make priorities, and we have a family motto:

"We Don't DO Crazy!" (LOL)

TY for your kind words, and the encouragement about "turning corners"-- I appreciated it all and it made me feel a bit better. I think I needed that and didn't even know it. **sniff**sniff** TY...
Posted 7/30/2015 2:29 PM (GMT 0)
Alimom, I COMPLETELY understand how mind-boggling it is to find that someone else has these very weird Lyme symptoms. And our commonalities are apparently even bigger than I could have imagined. I lived in northeastern Alberta (Elk Point) for many years before moving to central AB, my folks retired at Cold Lake, PLUS my sister lives in NS.

Your Igenex positive is absolutely valid. The challenge is to figure out how to beat these bacteria into submission. We WILL prevail.

Detoxing was never mentioned to me either when I was on abx, so I'm sure toxin load is through the roof. Doesn't help that unlike you I struggle to drink enough water. That needs to change.

I would very much like to correspond by email - TY for the offer. I'm sure that we could learn a lot from each other. My hubby was also blown away to hear your story. He's never doubted for a minute that I have Lyme, even when the first three Igenex tests didn't have sufficient bands to be positive. I, on the other hand, needed to see it in black and white to believe it, and I promptly burst into tears when I did.

I'll be thinking of you and hoping you start to see some improvement soon!
Posted 7/30/2015 4:15 PM (GMT 0)
I just wanted to comment how proud I am to be a part of this community. The support we are giving each other is amazing....
Alimom, with what you have on your plate...and how you are handling it all - you are a hero...and I am so glad you found your way here.
Posted 7/30/2015 4:33 PM (GMT 0)

Volyme said...
Alimom, I COMPLETELY understand how mind-boggling it is to find that someone else has these very weird Lyme symptoms. And our commonalities are apparently even bigger than I could have imagined. I lived in northeastern Alberta (Elk Point) for many years before moving to central AB, my folks retired at Cold Lake, PLUS my sister lives in NS.

Your Igenex positive is absolutely valid. The challenge is to figure out how to beat these bacteria into submission. We WILL prevail.

Detoxing was never mentioned to me either when I was on abx, so I'm sure toxin load is through the roof. Doesn't help that unlike you I struggle to drink enough water. That needs to change.

I would very much like to correspond by email - TY for the offer. I'm sure that we could learn a lot from each other. My hubby was also blown away to hear your story. He's never doubted for a minute that I have Lyme, even when the first three Igenex tests didn't have sufficient bands to be positive. I, on the other hand, needed to see it in black and white to believe it, and I promptly burst into tears when I did.

I'll be thinking of you and hoping you start to see some improvement soon!

WOW again-- so much in common- I worked for the ("then") Northeastern AB Health Unit (NEAHU) and had MANY meetings in Elk Point! Pretty drive up there back then. I was an NEAHU Home Care RN.
I was stunned when I saw my test results- I cried too!! I'd sent my Igenex bldwk twice as you probably remember reading earlier.
We loved Cold Lake/Grand Centre... It was a good time in our lives.
When we were "posted" back to the Maritimes, we were thrilled to receive the NS posting. We have been here (same base, rural-ish area) ever since 1996. How unusual to be so blessed- Only two great postings.

Your sister is in NS- WOW on that too. Sheesh! This is CRAZY!

I am so excited we can email. :) Makes my DAY/ WEEK/YEAR. LOL!
Posted 7/30/2015 4:39 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
I just wanted to comment how proud I am to be a part of this community. The support we are giving each other is amazing....
Alimom, with what you have on your plate...and how you are handling it all - you are a hero...and I am so glad you found your way here.

100% agreed!!
This has been an amazing place with such good info and support extended to all.
THANK YOU forum mods and members.

I have learned and AM learning so much! :) And-- I don't feel dumb asking questions.

Gotta love a positive and helpful place with so much knowledge and kindness.
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