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I might have found a missing link!

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Posted 8/7/2015 12:35 PM (GMT 0)
Many of you know that I'd become frustrated with the seemingly marginal amount of progress I made after being on the full Cowden protocol since February.

I was/am very fortunate that my symptoms have been mild but we all know that doesn't mean I'm not highly infected.

I had mild PNS stuff going on when I switched to Cowden and I now have a slightly milder version of the same PNS stuff.

After re-reading Buhner's Lyme book, I decided to start Stephania in the hopes it would help with my PNS issues. Even at lower doses, it seemed like it was helping.

Well, I also developed hot flashes when taking Stephania....and I later discovered that Dr. K mentions that it's also used to treat babesia. Hmmmm.... ;)

www.klinghardtacademy.com/images/stories/lyme/Herbs_used_in_treating_Lyme.pdf

Reading rowingmom's story of asymptomatic babesia treatment leading to resolution of bartonella symptoms got me researching more (surprise, surprise).

I read the aforementioned Buhner's book and enough of Bryan Rosner's book to feel comfortable about the concept of asymptomatic babesia...especially since Dr. K mentions 2/3 of people with Lyme also have babesia *and* I've read that babesia is very common in my area (NJ).

It seems many of us can have asymptomatic babesia....long before we ever got bit by ticks. Of course, babesia can be another "gift" (not) when getting bit by a tick.

With all of this in mind, I decided to trial some babesia herbs. I started with cryptolepis since Buhner recommends that if a person is going to take only one herb to treat babesia. I also bought sida acuta and achornea and have yet to start those.

Well, by the 3rd day of 1 drop cryptolepis, I had an instance of dizziness, slight chest pressure, pressure in the back of my head and a mild sensation of air hunger along with more hot flashes. My PNS symptoms increased in intensity as well.

Taking ASG eliminated all the new symptoms and my PNS symptoms are ever-so-slightly better.

2 drops of cryptolepis resulted in me feeling quite tired, without motivation and slight anxiety (never had that symptom before). Once again, ASG brought me back to baseline.

Today represents day 6 on cryptolepis. I'm thrilled with how much better I feel and I'm only up to 3 drops!

I've actually had many instances of longer periods of time during the past few days that I wasn't noticing PNS symptoms!!!

How sweet it will be if asymptomatic babesia is the only thing keeping me healing from Lyme :)

Thanks to all of you who helped me as I plodded through this stuff and especially to rowingmom for story-sharing!
Posted 8/7/2015 1:53 PM (GMT 0)
Nice! This is exactly the manner in which I work with our infections now. I am so glad to hear you are seeing some improvement.

There is nothing better than knowledge and a properly run experiment!!

Sorry, what is ASG?

K is having a bit of some dry cough now and I am wondering if it is in response to the addition and increasing dosages of Dan shen. Other than that she is asymptomatic. But obviously if she is reacting to Dan shen (I am not reacting myself), she still has some protozoan issues.

We are using 15 drops of CSA 2x daily, so that means 5 drops of cryptolepis 2x daily.

A while ago I trialed 15 drops CSA 3x daily and there was no herxing so I assumed babesia was under control. I wonder if Dan shen is hitting something different?
Posted 8/7/2015 2:14 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks so much, rowingmom! I am thrilled :)

ASG = Alka Seltzer Gold

Hmmm....Dan shen is part of Buhner's new Lyme protocol. I wonder how that fits w/K's experience? It might be one of those synergistic experiences...

I plan on starting Dan shen next (vs. sida acuta or achornea) only for what seems to be necessary spleen support when dealing with babesia.
Posted 8/7/2015 2:40 PM (GMT 0)
Hey rowingmom....

I'm sure you're aware of Buhner's new babesia protocol which is much more involved than what's on his website. I hope you don't mind answering a few questions...

Are you planning on trialing any herbs you're not currently taking?

Any recommendations for artemisinin products?

Are you taking milk thistle? If yes, what dose? (I was blown away at his dose size recommendations. I've been taking 150mg BID since I first started Lyme treatment. My liver enzymes have stayed WNL so I'm not sure I need to increase my dose)

I'm intrigued with Chinese skullcap root and it seems to mirror some of the actions of LDN which I've been taking since February. I think I'll talk to my LLMD about possibly switching but I suspect he doesn't have enough knowledge about the herb to guide me accordingly. What's your take on it?

I really respect what you've accomplished for yourself and your daughter. I'm so happy for both of you that you are reaping the benefits of all your hard work.
Posted 8/7/2015 4:42 PM (GMT 0)
That's good news, CD...I too hope you have found the missing link...even though it's Babesia!!

Hope you continue to make progress!
Posted 8/7/2015 9:42 PM (GMT 0)

cd3764 said...

Are you planning on trialing any herbs you're not currently taking?

Any recommendations for artemisinin products?

Are you taking milk thistle? If yes, what dose? (I was blown away at his dose size recommendations. I've been taking 150mg BID since I first started Lyme treatment. My liver enzymes have stayed WNL so I'm not sure I need to increase my dose)

I'm intrigued with Chinese skullcap root and it seems to mirror some of the actions of LDN which I've been taking since February. I think I'll talk to my LLMD about possibly switching but I suspect he doesn't have enough knowledge about the herb to guide me accordingly. What's your take on it?

When Buhner recommended Dan Shen in lieu of red root I thought I would give it a try.

He really does go into depth on that herb in his babesia book, actually saying it is a new favourite, so there is no way I would pass it up. We are still taking red root because while Dan Shen stops WBC rouleaux across endothelial tissue, red root stops the same phenomenon with RBC.

I found such a big improvement in my own cognitive function with red root and I am not ready to give it up yet.

We did trail bidens, but I was only able to source the B frondulosa tincture from WoodlandEssence. Buhner says that frondulosa may be even better for babesia than pilosa so I thought "what the heck", although neither K or myself can handle even 1 drop daily. It causes huge dizziness for both of us.

I queried Julie and she said just to discontinue and not worry about it.

If something else strikes my fancy I may give it a go, but I will have to reread the book before hand.

We are taking the complete bartonella protocol (except l-arginine) which includes hawthorne and milk thistle. We actually started milk thistle (powder in capsules) while K was on abx to decrease liver enzymes, and we found that 500mg QD at bedtime worked well.

We have since switched to a tincture and now take about 200mg QD at bedtime. Her enzymes were good about a year ago when we checked, but I have not run them since.

Buhner's recommendations are simply suggestions, and he reiterates this in his babesia coinfections book. If you consult with Julie you will see that she also recommends higher doses.

If I was you I wouldn't even try to make the maximums. I would try to get the whole protocol going at low dosages before further trying to increase the dosage of any single herb. Because the herbs work synergistically you may find that lower doses of multiple herbs work better than higher doses of any one herb.

We haven't tried Chinese skullcap, although Julie did recommend it to us initially. I remember reading something written about possible complications with long term use although I can't find it at the moment. It might have been something written in the Herbal Antivirals book.

I will try to find it.

My take on it would be to do a trial if it intuitively feels right to you. You will learn much from experimentation. You are right, most doctors don't have the expertise. I am greatly into N=1 experiments.
Posted 8/8/2015 12:38 AM (GMT 0)
Wanted to pop in here and say Congratulations, CD!!! I'm so very happy for you!! Feels so good when we figure out something that is blocking our healing!! I wish you nothing but the best!
Posted 8/8/2015 1:41 AM (GMT 0)
Oh, that reminds me - I saw a video of Dr. Horowitz discussing a patient that had been treated for quite some time and hadn't gotten better...and he put her on Babesia treatment...and within a few weeks, she started to improve....

I'll have to remember that if I don't progress with my bartonella treatment!
Posted 8/8/2015 2:25 AM (GMT 0)
That's fantastic news cd3764! I'm happy you're seeing improvements. I restarted my Babesia tinctures. So far, I have not noticed any progress with them. I'll see what happens.

Keep the progress coming!
Posted 8/8/2015 9:37 AM (GMT 0)
Congrats CD. Go slow with the crypto, it can floor you. When the crypto works, that means you have a protozoan infection. Whether or not it's babesia isn't sure. It could be Protomyxzoa or another protozoan that isn't yet known. Treat it like babesia for now and see where it takes you. I responded well to all of the babesia meds but none were curative. I think biofilms kept my protozoans alive. If you can eat a low fat diet, it may help. You have to eat fats, so eat good fat like walnuts. Their napthoquinone chemical composition will help destroy the protozoans. I eat 30g a day and it has worked well for me. Detoxing is the key and the more you detox, the more aggressive you can be with the treatment.
Posted 8/8/2015 12:30 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
That's good news, CD...I too hope you have found the missing link...even though it's Babesia!!

Hope you continue to make progress!

Thanks so much, Girlie! It's crazy that we even think to celebrate a possible additional infection but that's life with Lyme & Co's - right?

Yes, I, too, remembered Dr. Horowitz's video about previously undetected babesia treatment helping a person finally heal. I thank Stephania for heading me in the right direction ;)

I wish you the best with your healing!!

Post Edited (cd3764) : 8/8/2015 7:11:16 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/8/2015 1:04 PM (GMT 0)

rowingmom said...


When Buhner recommended Dan Shen in lieu of red root I thought I would give it a try.

He really does go into depth on that herb in his babesia book, actually saying it is a new favourite, so there is no way I would pass it up. We are still taking red root because while Dan Shen stops WBC rouleaux across endothelial tissue, red root stops the same phenomenon with RBC.

I found such a big improvement in my own cognitive function with red root and I am not ready to give it up yet.

We did trail bidens, but I was only able to source the B frondulosa tincture from WoodlandEssence. Buhner says that frondulosa may be even better for babesia than pilosa so I thought "what the heck", although neither K or myself can handle even 1 drop daily. It causes huge dizziness for both of us.

I queried Julie and she said just to discontinue and not worry about it.

If something else strikes my fancy I may give it a go, but I will have to reread the book before hand.

We are taking the complete bartonella protocol (except l-arginine) which includes hawthorne and milk thistle. We actually started milk thistle (powder in capsules) while K was on abx to decrease liver enzymes, and we found that 500mg QD at bedtime worked well.

We have since switched to a tincture and now take about 200mg QD at bedtime. Her enzymes were good about a year ago when we checked, but I have not run them since.

Buhner's recommendations are simply suggestions, and he reiterates this in his babesia coinfections book. If you consult with Julie you will see that she also recommends higher doses.

If I was you I wouldn't even try to make the maximums. I would try to get the whole protocol going at low dosages before further trying to increase the dosage of any single herb. Because the herbs work synergistically you may find that lower doses of multiple herbs work better than higher doses of any one herb.

We haven't tried Chinese skullcap, although Julie did recommend it to us initially. I remember reading something written about possible complications with long term use although I can't find it at the moment. It might have been something written in the Herbal Antivirals book.

I will try to find it.

My take on it would be to do a trial if it intuitively feels right to you. You will learn much from experimentation. You are right, most doctors don't have the expertise. I am greatly into N=1 experiments.

Thanks so much for your detailed post!

It's great to read that you've had so many improvements with the various herbs Buhner recommends!

It is clear to me that I should be guided by what my body tells me. I guess my LLMD's assessment of me being "hyperaware" of my body will bode me well moving forward :)

After reading Buhner's new book on babesia, etc., I also became very interested in Dan Shen and I'm anxious to start it. In fact, I'm anxious to start many of the herbs he recommends lol

I really appreciate your recommendation about starting the whole protocol at low doses. I was having trouble with the concept of titrating one herb to maximum dose before adding another herb....especially because Buhner mentions that everyone has individual dose requirements and, most especially, because the herbs work synergistically.

The concept of a multi-approach attack sooner rather than later appeals to me :)

If you are able to find the info you read about Chinese skullcap, I would greatly appreciate you sharing.

I soooo wish my LLMD told me in the beginning that he planned on transitioning me to herbals. I would have had more time to research everything before plodding forward. In fact, I was so overwhelmed that I chose Cowden out of simplicity.

At this juncture, I'm very much relating to what Buhner recommends. Treating Lyme & Co's is quite the individualized experience and only I will know what works for me and what doesn't.

Thanks again and best wishes for your continued success!

Post Edited (cd3764) : 8/8/2015 7:07:14 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/8/2015 1:13 PM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...
Wanted to pop in here and say Congratulations, CD!!! I'm so very happy for you!! Feels so good when we figure out something that is blocking our healing!! I wish you nothing but the best!

Thanks so much, Trav! Your support for everyone on here is tremendous and we are very fortunate to have you here :)

(and, my apologies for the slightly delayed thanks....I was trying to reply to all the wonderful posts on here "in order" and the spam filter stopped me from posting this initially. I then opened another HW window to start typing a reply to rowingmom and clicked "submit" before going back to this one lol)
Posted 8/8/2015 1:35 PM (GMT 0)

Lymie Girl said...
That's fantastic news cd3764! I'm happy you're seeing improvements. I restarted my Babesia tinctures. So far, I have not noticed any progress with them. I'll see what happens.

Keep the progress coming!

Thanks so much, Lymie Girl!

How long have you been doing the babesia tinctures? I wish you the utmost success with them and, of course, your healing!!
Posted 8/8/2015 2:27 PM (GMT 0)
P N S ? hu?

(I'm guessing it has nothing to do with ones thats close to that)

I'm not one for guessing acronyms.
Posted 8/8/2015 3:40 PM (GMT 0)

Georgia Hunter said...
Congrats CD. Go slow with the crypto, it can floor you. When the crypto works, that means you have a protozoan infection. Whether or not it's babesia isn't sure. It could be Protomyxzoa or another protozoan that isn't yet known. Treat it like babesia for now and see where it takes you. I responded well to all of the babesia meds but none were curative. I think biofilms kept my protozoans alive. If you can eat a low fat diet, it may help. You have to eat fats, so eat good fat like walnuts. Their napthoquinone chemical composition will help destroy the protozoans. I eat 30g a day and it has worked well for me. Detoxing is the key and the more you detox, the more aggressive you can be with the treatment.

Thanks so much, Georgia Hunter! How slow is slow with the crypto, if you don't mind me asking?

I've been trying to judge things by my body's response. I shared what the first few drops did in regards to herxes. I'm now up to 5 drops and plan on holding at that dose until Monday. I can't say I'm noticing too much as far as an increase in symptoms is concerned....I'm dealing with some pressure at the base of my skull and I'm might be sighing a bit/having a bit of chest tightness but I'd really have to pay attention to be sure.

I maintain a regular detox regimen and have added ASG BID to help with herxes. They have been really mild so far...thank goodness.

I'm inclined to titrate Buhner's herbs as I did Cowden (once I learned what worked for me which wasn't his schedule). I started with one drop for each dose and increased by one drop for each dose daily until I herxed. It seems I usually herx by the 3rd day. I'd then stay at 3 drops for a couple days then continue increasing as I had been..

Once I got to 10 drops, I would increase by 2 drops for each dose...every day until i got up to 30 drops.

Since I am most likely dealing with a previously untreated infection, I could very well find the need to go slower.

Admittedly, I had 5 months of abx under my belt for Lyme treatment before I started Cowden. I only had a few hot flashes on Enula.....and nothing happened with Houttunyia.

What do you think about my potential dosing schedule?

Thanks for the additional info about protozoan infections. There are enough strains of babesia to make one concerned lol The tips about fat intake are useful - I do eat good fats daily.

I couldn't agree more with what you said about detoxing - learning to do that was a valuable lesson taught to me by this forum.

Post Edited (cd3764) : 8/8/2015 10:39:52 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/8/2015 3:45 PM (GMT 0)

astroman said...
P N S ? hu?

(I'm guessing it has nothing to do with ones thats close to that)

I'm not one for guessing acronyms.

Sorry astroman - I thought I'd seen the acronym on here. I was remiss with ASG (= Alka Seltzer Gold) as well. :(

PNS = peripheral nervous system
Posted 8/8/2015 6:48 PM (GMT 0)
I've not been tested for babesia; only borrelia, bartonella, myco, Chlamydophilia, and virals

Are there specific symptoms of babesia?
Posted 8/8/2015 7:04 PM (GMT 0)
I restarted them about a week ago at a low dose-once a day. I have had issues with tinctures. I might go up to twice a day and see how I do. I only take 5 drops of crypto a day because it seems to aggravate my hypoglycemia, which seems pretty rare. The Alchornea seemed to aggravate my irritability at first. I'm not sure if it is hitting Bart or something else. I can't find much info on it.

I recently added Houttuynia and noticed Bartonella marks within a day or so. I feel pretty confident that I have Bart now thanks to the Hout. I felt pretty sure before, but this served as more evidence.

I'm trying to decide whether to stick with Buhner or try A-Bab. I definitely noticed improvements with the artemisinin. It might be too early to tell with Buhner.

Good luck! Keep us posted.
Posted 8/8/2015 8:30 PM (GMT 0)

sweetpeaisme said...
I've not been tested for babesia; only borrelia, bartonella, myco, Chlamydophilia, and virals

Are there specific symptoms of babesia?

This will be helpful for you: www.personalconsult.com/free/Checklists2012.pdf

The 2nd & 3rd pages are blank, so be sure to scroll past them!!
Posted 8/8/2015 8:32 PM (GMT 0)

cd3764 said...
Thanks so much, Trav! Your support for everyone on here is tremendous and we are very fortunate to have you here :)

(and, my apologies for the slightly delayed thanks....I was trying to reply to all the wonderful posts on here "in order" and the spam filter stopped me from posting this initially. I then opened another HW window to start typing a reply to rowingmom and clicked "submit" before going back to this one lol)




Never a problem!! I don't get jealous easy!! smilewinkgrin LOL!

And thank you for your kind words!! They mean a lot to me! Encouraging me to continue on!!

May your successes continue!!!
Posted 8/8/2015 10:23 PM (GMT 0)
I just had the weirdest experience after my afternoon dose (I'm 1 week into taking cryptolepis. I started 5 drops last night (figured I could sleep through a possible herx lol). I continued with 5 drops today....in addition to steady doses of other stuff).

I was overcome with a sense of unwellness. I felt shaky and very unsteady on my feet. My skin was stinging almost like what a bad sunburn might feel like. I must admit I became a bit scared.

Something told me to eat and I chose 1/4 cup of organic mixed nuts and drank a LOT of water. I felt back to my old self very soon after that.

What was that herx all about?
Posted 8/8/2015 10:26 PM (GMT 0)
Oh...forgot to mention.

I'm not going to be following the titration method I used with Cowden only because I want to start on low doses of the whole Buhner babesia protocol.

I'm intrigued by the synergistic nature of herbs and want to see how that works for me.

It's so hard to describe but, I'm feeling soooo much better with Stephania and Cryptolepis in my life. My insides feel liberated lol
Posted 8/8/2015 10:50 PM (GMT 0)

cd3764 said...
I just had the weirdest experience after my afternoon dose (I'm 1 week into taking cryptolepis. I started 5 drops last night (figured I could sleep through a possible herx lol). I continued with 5 drops today....in addition to steady doses of other stuff).

I was overcome with a sense of unwellness. I felt shaky and very unsteady on my feet. My skin was stinging almost like what a bad sunburn might feel like. I must admit I became a bit scared.

Something told me to eat and I chose 1/4 cup of organic mixed nuts and drank a LOT of water. I felt back to my old self very soon after that.

What was that herx all about?

That's what was happening to me as my adrenals were going down - protein worked every time to stop it. And that's why I'm on a high protein diet now. If this keeps happening, then it could be your adrenals need some help!!
Posted 8/9/2015 1:16 AM (GMT 0)
I always dosed my crypto 3 times a day. I increased one drop 3 times a day until I herxed. I backed off a drop 3 times a day for several days and then increased 1 drop on one dose. The next day I increased another drop on one dose. I eventually got up to 20 drops 3 times a day. After I went off of this for a few weeks, I started with 5 drops 3 times a day. It put me down hard.
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