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Lymph nodes not fully returning to normal

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Posted 1/6/2016 7:27 PM (GMT 0)
My Lyme/Bartonella initially presented itself as a swollen left occipital lymph node, so large that you could actually see it. about 1 month later I was hit with generalized lymphadenopathy, including other parts of my neck, groin, and clavicle. It happened quickly and painfully, and I am told it was a manifestation of the Bart.

This all happened in the Summer of 2015. By the time I started receiving treatment for my infections in December, the lymph nodes had all returned to normal, with the exception of 2 in my neck which can easily be felt if palpated with soap or lotion. Now, 1 month into treatment, I can still feel them.

Can I reasonably expect that they will eventually return to normal, or is possible that they stay this way?
Posted 1/6/2016 8:06 PM (GMT 0)
I have bartonella, too. I didn't realize that the sore lump in my clavicle area was a swollen lymph node...until my first appt. with my LLND.

Part way through my lyme treatment I got bump on the back of my head behind my ear - it was also a lymph node.It went away after a few weeks and hasn't returned.

I am now treating bart...and my lymph node hasn't bothered me for about a month now, but I can still slightly feel it - but it's not sore anymore.

Since they are swollen because of an infection - once the the infection is effectively treated, they should all go back to normal.
Posted 1/6/2016 8:46 PM (GMT 0)
I have heard that gently using a rebounder (a small trampoline-like device) helps with lymph drainage. Maybe bouncing a bit on a mattress would have the same effect. No need to even jump to loose contact, just try a low impact bounce.

Also I have been to a holistic chiropractor in Worcester that is lyme friendly and uses a cold laser device to help with lymph drainage and many other lyme related symptoms.
Posted 1/6/2016 9:29 PM (GMT 0)
I dealt with swollen lymph nodes as a seemingly endless herx when on abx....swollen/not as swollen/painfully swollen/not as swollen.....and had limited instances of them when herxing on Buhner's herbs.

Red Root is part of Buhner's Babesia and Bartonella protocols. I increased his recommended dose to 1 tsp 3x daily (her recommends anywhere from 1/4 tsp up to 1 tsp 3x daily). Red root clears lymph fluid...amongst other things.

The increased dose took care of things for me within a week's time - possibly sooner.
Posted 1/7/2016 2:40 AM (GMT 0)
Anyone else care to share their experience with red root?
Posted 1/7/2016 3:41 AM (GMT 0)
I am a fan of Red Root. It is really helping me. But Girlie is right about a rebounder. Our lymph system has no pump. The way to get that lymph moving is a rebounder or briskly walking and swinging your arms.
Posted 1/7/2016 4:03 AM (GMT 0)
It was Tickbite who mentioned the rebounder...can't take credit...lol
Posted 1/7/2016 6:31 AM (GMT 0)
My lymphs in my occipital lobe are still really swollen too. I haven't been able to completely get rid of bart but still trying. I believe from other I have been in contact with that had bart in remission that the swelling went down but sometimes the lymph is still painful still it heals the damage.
Posted 1/7/2016 5:06 PM (GMT 0)
I used red root and self lymph massages to successfully reduce the size of the lymph nodes and to get them back to doing their job!

How to do a lymph massage on yourself: /www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA-wi0d7-Ro
Posted 1/7/2016 9:09 PM (GMT 0)
please buy and use Red Root. It is awesome for lymph nodes and spleen. Buhner herb.

Bartonella is very hard to get rid of. But EBV also can cause swollen lymph nodes and EBV along with Coxackie and CMV are viruses that tend to go out of control in a lyme sick patient (because of immuno suppression). So it can be Bartonella or EBV mono...

When i started treatment, my LTT EBV was very high and Coxackie was something like 100 times higher than normal...
Posted 1/9/2016 6:58 PM (GMT 0)
Any particular brand of red root, or does it not matter?
Posted 1/9/2016 7:02 PM (GMT 0)
i buy my herbs from:

Woodland Essence
Sage Woman Herbs

they are on Buhner's list.


A couple more he recommends:

Elk Mountain Herbs
Mountain Rose Herbs
Posted 1/9/2016 8:20 PM (GMT 0)
I just want to say that I love red root. If only all the other herbs I'm taking worked for me as well as it does, I'd have been healed up a long time ago.

I did use the tinctures, just Herb Pharm, but I started having problems with the alcohol in them, which the hot water thing didn't completely resolve, which sucks, 'cause I believe he recommends that it be taken in that form.

I'm guessing because the alcohol helps the medicinal properties be absorbed a lot better, quicker?

There might be glycerites available somewhere, but I've just resorted to making a ton into tea. I can tell it still works.

Anyhoo, yes, I just wanted to say that it is good stuff for sure.
Posted 1/10/2016 3:28 PM (GMT 0)

NotQuiteAntonio said...
I'm guessing because the alcohol helps the medicinal properties be absorbed a lot better, quicker?

According to Buhner, the alcohol facilitates the largest number of constituents to macerate into the tinctures.

He does recommend powder forms in certain instances. It really depends on the particular herb.

People have healed using powder alone in infusions/decoctions.
Posted 1/10/2016 3:44 PM (GMT 0)
My lymph nodes only started swelling up when I initiated Buhner's bartonella herbs. It took them about 7 months to resolve, but that was before I added the babesia protocol (which includes red root). I can't say how they would have responded to red root.
Posted 1/10/2016 3:54 PM (GMT 0)

RhodeIslander said...
Anyone else care to share their experience with red root?

The day I started red root I found a big improvement in cognitive ability which remains while I take it. I've gone a few days without it here and there and not noticed a real decline. I also noticed a big improvement in circulation in my extremities, with a decline in tingling and coldness.

Red root stops RBC rouleaux across endothelial tissue - which is an issue with both bartonella, because it inflames the endothelium, and babesia, because it infects RBC. There is a good explaination here:

bearmedicineherbals.com/ceanothus.html

as well as in Buhner's babesia coinfection book.
Posted 1/10/2016 6:05 PM (GMT 0)
1/4 tsp up to 1 tsp 3x daily,.............. sounds like a lot. Is the secret to feeling any benefits from red root to take a lot of it?

Is red root in lower amounts, in capsuls beneficial?

I'm interested in it cognitive improvement possibilities.
Posted 1/10/2016 6:59 PM (GMT 0)

RhodeIslander said...
Any particular brand of red root, or does it not matter?

herb pharm
Posted 1/10/2016 7:01 PM (GMT 0)
As with all things, start slow. Each person's effective dose is different. When I took too much of what helped me with my lymphs, it made them (my lymphs) hurt more, so I knew to back down a drop or two.

"Lymph nodes are small structures that work as filters for harmful substances. They contain immune cells that can help fight infection by attacking and destroying germs that are carried in through the lymph fluid."

"When there’s a problem, such as infection, injury, or cancer, the node or the group of lymph nodes in that area may swell or enlarge as they work to filter out the “bad” cells." As well as pieces of bacteria - like from these infections.

(Quotes came from: www.cancer.org/cancer/cancerbasics/lymph-nodes-and-cancer)

Lymph massages can go a long way in helping to dislodge some of that debris that may be 'stuck' in the lymph nodes: /www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA-wi0d7-Ro
Posted 1/10/2016 8:30 PM (GMT 0)

astroman said...
1/4 tsp up to 1 tsp 3x daily,.............. sounds like a lot. Is the secret to feeling any benefits from red root to take a lot of it?

Is red root in lower amounts, in capsuls beneficial?

I'm interested in it cognitive improvement possibilities.

I only use 7 drops 3x daily. Even my son (never symptomatic, healthy as a horse) finds a cognitive difference and thus takes it before university exams.

Remember Buhner's disclaimer on possible difficulties with clotting in people who have a propensity for that. The reason why he recommends DanShen in his newest babesia book. I have trialed DanShen and found that it was not effective for me. Buhner loves it though so maybe I'm a one off.

The problem is that DanShen (red sage) only decreases rouleaux of WBC and not RBC, which I think is the real issue with poor microcirculation.
Posted 1/10/2016 9:36 PM (GMT 0)
"Remember Buhner's disclaimer on possible difficulties with clotting in people who have a propensity for that."-

well you have a good memory, as the above would be me.

In laymans terms, what does redroot do to blood? (if you or anyone can explain it).
Posted 1/10/2016 9:47 PM (GMT 0)
Yes, I did remember you had that issue.

The link that I posted up above, states:

Michael Moore speaks specifically to Redroot’s impact on the blood and lymph:

“As a tonic, you need to understand that Red Root, particularly the tincture, helps to diminish the tendency for red blood cells to clump together in blood that is either high in fat chylomicrons (after a heavy meal, as an example) or with elevated inflammatory compounds (from allergic, sensitizing or other immunologic responses), a condition called rouleau. Another way to describe it is having sticky or viscous blood, with adhering constituents and diminished surface tension or charge. Red Root kicks up the charge, helps blood cells and inner vessel linings repel each other better, the blood, while not changing chemistry, changes its osmolality and flows better. This aids the transport across capillary walls of diffuse substances and the non-protein fractions of blood that becomes interstitial fluid and lymph.”

I tend to prefer Ceanothus in formula when addressing lymphatic stagnation or symptoms of hypoimmunity and find that it is less likely to cause feelings of “toxicity” with hangover like symptoms and possible hepatic pain from rapid stimulation of lymphatic circulation when combined with other herbs specific to the situation. Note that Redroot differs from many of our most frequently used alteratives in being neutral to warming in thermal energetics and sweet in taste in contrast to the more common cold and bitter herbs such as Dandelion, Cleavers and Oregon Grape Root. This difference can be used to great advantage when matched to people with cold, chronic conditions and lax tissues where an alterative is needed.

I see Ceanothus as best suited to clearing up lingering afflictions that have gone chronic, particularly those affecting the immune and hepatic systems, manifesting as swollen glands, slow healing wounds and other hypoimmune indications, chronic hepatitis, mononucleosis and bronchitis with cold signs. Used inappropriately during acute inflammation or aggravation, Redroot can be ineffective or, worse, cause aggravation of the existing condition. Its strong (more or less depending on species) astringency can also have a suppressive effect on glandular swellings which, if treated in this manner, will reappear and potentially worsen when the herbal treatment is stopped.

However, when used where there are signs of coldness and laxity in the tissues, accompanied by symptoms of chronic swelling, digestive malabsorption, long-term infections, lymphatic tenderness or swelling, Redroot can be an excellent and widely applicable remedy.

Look for a pale tongue, subjective feelings of fatigue, heaviness and coldness in conjunction with a tendency to catch every cold or flu that comes around with slow recovery time and that feeling that they’re always about to get sick. Often digestion will be sluggish and the person will have some level of “bad skin” manifesting as acne outbreaks or even just a flat, vaguely yellowed complexion. Other symptoms include ongoing dull, achy headaches (especially after eating a fatty meal), hemorrhoids and varicose veins. It’s not uncommon to see some variation of this pattern in people with chronic viral hepatitis (or those recovering from acute hepatitis), Lyme disease (particularly with Bartonella co-infection), lupus and other autoimmune conditions as well as mononucleosis.

Where the above pattern is present, Redroot can be effective in reducing inflammation and clearing boggy tissues in any number of situations, from old bronchitis to drippy sinusitis to hepatitis with portal congestion and all sorts of nagging pelvic pain with sensations of heaviness, dragging and swelling. Ceanothus is a supporting/tonic herb and generally works in a slow, supportive manner when use appropriately. What is important here, as with most other herbs, is the overall tissue state rather than the disease name or even the specific organ system. Looking at the constitution and tissue state and working from there with inevitably result in better results and an easier match between person and plant.

Redroot is also an effective astringent and many of its most well known traditional uses are directly related to this action, including reducing blood flow in cases of uterine hemorrhage and nosebleeds. I have seen Ceanothus be very useful with the bleeding, pain, tenderness and swelling of ovarian cysts and its mild antispasmodic action can be useful here as well. It does not necessarily address the underlying issues but can serve as a constitutional tonic as well as helping to lessen uncomfortable symptoms while foundational causes are being addressed.

Considerations: Caution should be used when used alongside anti-coagulants. Otherwise, used according to indications for cold, chronic conditions rather than hot, acute conditions, Redroot is a safe and well tolerated herb that can be used over a long period of time.


Whether she means that it helps or hinders anti-coagulants, IDK

Post Edited (rowingmom) : 1/10/2016 2:50:05 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/10/2016 11:21 PM (GMT 0)
I suspect Red Root adds to the effects of anti-coagulants....


I say this based upon my knowledge of Red Root and that was confirmed rowingmom's post above mine:

"Red Root kicks up the charge, helps blood cells and inner vessel linings repel each other better, the blood, while not changing chemistry, changes its osmolality and flows better."
Posted 1/10/2016 11:46 PM (GMT 0)
But Buhner says in his babs book that it can cause coagulation issues for some and therefore the reason he has started recommending DanShen.
Posted 1/11/2016 12:22 AM (GMT 0)

rowingmom said...
But Buhner says in his babs book that it can cause coagulation issues for some and therefore the reason he has started recommending DanShen.

Yikes, rowingmom!

I had that concept in my mind awhile back and obviously forgot when I was thinking about it helping keep blood vessels clear.

My "regular" life is a bit insane right now - my 88 y/o Mom is in the hospital and I'm trying to manage things from 2+ hours away. It's clear my concentration on here is lacking. Sorry folks. Glad we have others to straighten things out.
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