Houttuynia for Bartonella

I know Buhner recommends Houttuynia for Bartonella. My doctor has it in my new protocol which I started Tuesday (1/2 tsp, 2x a day). I have suspected that I have Bartonella, however, I have had no reaction to this herb and I thought it was supposed to be pretty strong? I am only on my 5th day, so maybe I shouldn't speak so soon. Or, is Sida Acuta the better herb to trial for Bart?

*I am also taking Buhner Core Protocol for Lyme (Green Dragon), Red Root, Hawthorne alongside Azith & Plaq.

cowden on Houttuynia /youtu.be/91iIMrXif2g

true. Buhner's Bart protocol is quite complex. i have his coinfections book.

it includes: knotweed, egcg, l-arginine, cordyceps, sida acuta, red root, milk thistle, hawthorn, rhodiola+ashwagadha, isatis+houttuynia+alchornea, pomegranate juice and Vit E.

the reason there are so many herbs is Bart is really hard to pacify. Even today on his wrbsite Buhner says "work in progress" below the protocol, meaning he is still not very satisfied with the results...

same is true for abx. no combination works too well. very stubborn little intracelular bacteria this Bart is.

This is a quote from Buhner's coinfections book:

"BARTONELLA AND HERXHEIMER REACTIONS

Bartonella bacteria possess very low endotoxicity. This is crucial because endothelial cells have a very low tolerance for endotoxins. The lipopolysaccharide of the bacteria is at least 1,000 times less toxic than that of Salmonella bacteria. Herxheimer reactions during bartonella infection, if they exist, would seem to be occurring from something other than bartonella cellular death. For it is generally the lipopolysaccharide that is released during cell death that causes the toxic reactions known as herxing.

Some people do have periodic bouts of what they call herxing, usually in response to antibiotics. The nature of the bacteria doesn’t lend credence to the herxing being from the bartonella. One thing to keep in mind however: Those antibiotics you are taking? They don’t just kill bartonella. They kill a lot of other things as well."

Healing Lyme Disease Coinfections: Complementary and Holistic Treatments for Bartonella and Mycoplasma
www.goodreads.com/book/show/15954999-healing-lyme-disease-coinfections

Thanks mpost & cd. My EBV igg is >600 as well as the ig nuclear antigen is high. That is why I was thinking I should avoid it. Perhaps I will trial.

EBV can be treated with L-lysine. I've been doing this for years now. It's really nice to know that I can treat this virus any time I believe it's rearing it's ugly little head without having to go to the doc's.

umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/lysine

I too strongly believe Bart can cause herx reactions. Careful when Buhner says in his book that bartonella causes no herxes, because I had serious burning herxes and I too thought it was not Bart but Lyme. Turns out it was a Bart herx the whole time. It's related to the swelling of endothelial cells that occurs with bartonella infection.

I've wondered myself about the difference between Buhner's opinion that Bartonella doesn't cause herxes and all the reports from people on forums about Bartonella herxes.

I did a quick search and I suspect this is probably one of the papers that informed Buhner's opinion that Bartonella has low endotoxicity:

"Some unusual structural features of the B. henselae lipopolysaccharide, including the presence of a long-chain fatty acid, which are shared by the lipopolysaccharides of other bacteria causing chronic intracellular infections (e.g. Legionella and Chlamydia), may provide the molecular basis for low endotoxic potency."

Structure and biological activity of the short-chain lipopolysaccharide from Bartonella henselae ATCC 49882T.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14766898

So it seems that the Bartonella bacterium itself isn't super toxic. So what to make of all the reports of herxing?

One possibility is that the herb taken is killing some other bacteria that is more toxic.

Another possibility is that since Bartonella is an intracellular pathogen, the herxes are from the debris of our own cells that are killed when we go after Bartonella.

The paper above states that Chlamydia also has low endotoxicity and this one corroborates that:

"The chlamydial LPS were at least 10 times less active than typical endotoxins"
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12542694

However the cpnhelp.org message board is filled with people herxing and using binders for the die off from Chlamydia Pneumoniae. They attribute this to toxic heme synthesis byproducts (porphyrins) produced inside cells that Chlamydia has infected and hijacked. Killing the cell releases these toxic metabolites.

So perhaps Bartonella could be doing something similar inside our cells that it infects, and when released these toxins create the herx we feel.

Traveler: I did read the entire quote. I'm sorry, there's just no way that the herbs are killing bacteria/fungi that have the exact same symptoms as Bartonella. I'd understand if the symptoms were a headache or tiredness, but Bartonella has very specific symptoms that point to it and only it.

project: that is an interesting finding. Maybe it's the cells. But i'm pretty sure i've heard of disease that causes the body's cells to die (maybe cancer) and the symptoms are never confused with bartonella.

cd3764: No, Buhner basically said Bartonella doesn't cause herxing. From mpost's "The nature of the bacteria doesn’t lend credence to the herxing being from the bartonella". That's pretty much saying, that along with it being low-endotoxicity, bartonella usually won't be the thing that causes herxes. Saying that something else is dying which causes the herxes = Bartonella bacteria not causing the herxing. Which I respond in saying that i've been on treatment for bart for a long time and it's definitely bartonella symptoms, not mold, candida etc.

What fungi or bacteria could die off and cause the exact same specific symptoms as Bartonella?

afiya4health said...
Traveler: I did read the entire quote. I'm sorry, there's just no way that the herbs are killing bacteria/fungi that have the exact same symptoms as Bartonella. I'd understand if the symptoms were a headache or tiredness, but Bartonella has very specific symptoms that point to it and only it.

project: that is an interesting finding. Maybe it's the cells. But i'm pretty sure i've heard of disease that causes the body's cells to die (maybe cancer) and the symptoms are never confused with bartonella.

cd3764: No, Buhner basically said Bartonella doesn't cause herxing. From mpost's "The nature of the bacteria doesn’t lend credence to the herxing being from the bartonella". That's pretty much saying, that along with it being low-endotoxicity, bartonella usually won't be the thing that causes herxes. Saying that something else is dying which causes the herxes = Bartonella bacteria not causing the herxing. Which I respond in saying that i've been on treatment for bart for a long time and it's definitely bartonella symptoms, not mold, candida etc.

What fungi or bacteria could die off and cause the exact same specific symptoms as Bartonella?

Well, I for one herxed my butt off when treating for Bartonella - but can I say that it was specifically Bartonella die off that was responsible? No. I was also treating for Lyme at the same time, and had Babesia, RMSF, Brucellosis and many other infections that could have been dying off and creating those issues - yes, even though I was herxing with Bartonella symptoms - but Bartonella is NOT the only infection that causes foot/leg pain or any of the other symptoms.

Were you co-infected with anything besides Bartonella at the time of your treatment for Bart? What all was in your protocol? Were they things that could have been treating another infection that you had, maybe without knowing it?

"bartonella usually won't be the thing that causes herxes" and " Bartonella doesn't cause herxing" are not the same thing. The word "usually" changes everything.

Buhner does point out that 'Sida can increase fatigue and symptoms of coinfections.....My speculation is that sida breaks biofilms, and that in diseases such as bartonellosis, once that happens, instead of the bacteria being limited to one location, they are then spread more widely throughout the body, increasing thier negative impacts.'

Ergo, feels like a herx, no?

I know this is about sida, rather than houttunyia (which was the origional topic) but I thought I would chuck it in here as it seems to be relevant to the bart herx/no bart herx debate.

Since no one, not even the best of them, know exactly what ultimately produces what since there are sooo many variables involved - your body's DNA and internal 'environment', the DNA of the individual infections all mixed up in there, other predisposing health conditions, external environmental factors.....etc, etc, I don't believe there is a definitive cause and effect that fits us all. Mind you, that's just my brain trying to make sense of it all, LOL!

Yes, mpost, it was my red blood cells that came back all screwed up on my blood test ('screwed up' is my very best technical term, lol) hence the sida I am taking. My doc thinks from symptoms I have bart but not babs, but whatever it is sida kicks my butt, lol! I am taking houttunyia too so the butt kicking could be from either of them. What I do know is that over 5 drops of sida isn't funny for me, lol! Minimum doses of houttunyia too or it all becomes a little too much...

hi, all. i took houttuniya for bartonella and my doc just told me i can stop cuz now i have to work on my gut. i have 4 brand new bottles of nutramedix houttunyia ....if anyone wants to buy it cheaply, would love to sell it.
please let me know thanks
Daffodil