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Feedback about a quote from Dr. H's book
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Lyme Disease
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mpost
Veteran Member
Joined : Feb 2015
Posts : 1716
Posted 1/30/2016 9:04 AM (GMT 0)
So among my ever expanding lyme literature and research papers read, there is this book by Dr. H. "Why can't i get better? Solving the mystery of lyme and chronic disease".
The book does not talk much about
herbal therapies. But there is a chapter called "Lyme nutritional therapies" where he touches the subject. A paragraph from this chapter has drawn my attention:
"
Over 99% of all my patients, who had been ill for years and were treated for MSIDS with antibiotics alone, would relapse to varying degrees once the antibiotics were stopped.
Placing them on herbal protocol once they came off antibiotics controlled the majority of their symptoms and enabled up to 70% to remain well for months to years. What's more, the patients in all four groups reported that they were feeling better".
So here's my question: if 99% of the chronic patients treated with antibiotics relapse when ABX are stopped, then why put these people on ABX for so long in the first place? You can't keep them on abx for lifetime... So what is the deal here ? Why not treat them with herbs since the beginning, or give them say 2 months of abx to do a lot of damage to the infection to begin with, then quickly switch to herbals. Why the need for years of abx since the hope for remission (on abx alone) is 1% or less ?
Your comments, much appreciated...
CD3764
Veteran Member
Joined : Sep 2014
Posts : 4510
Posted 1/30/2016 1:11 PM (GMT 0)
I have had the exact same question, mpost.
In fact, I'm annoyed with my ILADS-trained LLMD because he discouraged me from taking herbs while I was on abx and I had the impression he was "anti-herb".
I almost fell off my chair in February of last year when he told me he thought I was no longer a candidate for abx (my symptoms were so very mild). He then told me to transition to an herbal protocol (either Buhner, Cowden or White).
I hadn't researched any of the protocols to any degree and felt very rushed to make a decision. As time went on, it became clear to me that my LLMD knew virtually nothing about
herbs and he wound up releasing me in October.
I think most LLMD's only know abx (after all, they are doctors and not herbalists). Maybe fears of persecution for recommending herbs (not FDA approved) are just as great as the fears of persecution for prescribing long-term abx.
It's a very frustrating state of affairs and it's the patients who lose.
mpost
Veteran Member
Joined : Feb 2015
Posts : 1716
Posted 1/30/2016 3:39 PM (GMT 0)
Well then i am really really sorry to say this but CDC is right to go after some of these LLMDs. If you know that less than 1% of your chronic patients get well on sole antibiotics and you prescribe them years of ABX when there are serious side effects to ABX for such long time, and when there are alternatives for this disease that are much easier to take by the body than ABX (herbals) .... then i'm sorry but yeah ... i don't think you are a good doctor...
Traveler
Elite Member
Joined : May 2007
Posts : 36573
Posted 1/30/2016 3:51 PM (GMT 0)
I've stayed away from commenting on that, as I know that many here believe I'm very biased towards herbs because that's what I used (even though they couldn't be more wrong about
me) - but I very much believe that. Over the almost 8 years I've been here, I've watched too many members relapse or need to go to herbs to "finish out" their treatments - but to say that no one ever heals with abx alone is wrong as well. I know of people that do heal with pharma abx alone and are out enjoying their lives now.
I believe that these doctors are only capable of working with what they know - and what do they know? What they were taught in school - pharmaceuticals, not herbs. I don't believe that the majority of LLMD's believe herbs will work, or they would be using them. Start interviewing herbalists and you will see the slant go the other way.
I don't agree at all with the statement that the CDC is right to go after some of these LLMD's - and it's not the CDC, but insurance co's and medical boards - as they are persecuting them not for using "bad medicine", but for not following IDSA's treatment protocols which are a LOT worse than what the LLMD's do since the ID doc's will only prescribe short courses of abx, then nothing at all. At least the LLMD's understand that 2 - 4 weeks of abx won't clear a Lyme infection, and don't tell the patient that the remaining symptoms are self inflicted in some manner.
silly sheep
Veteran Member
Joined : Oct 2014
Posts : 778
Posted 1/30/2016 3:52 PM (GMT 0)
It is a shame that herbals are considered 'alternative.' and that MDs/GPs etc have no or very little knowledge of them. While I understand they cannot treat you with them, due to this lack if knowledge (that would for sure be unwise...unsafe even) it would clearly benefit lyme patients, and probably many sufferers of other illnesses, if their knowledge was integrated to include herbs and abx.
Sadly that's not the way med school works. It doesn't mean they are 'bad' doctors per se, but constrained by their medical training. Maybe oneday the powers of alternatives to standard abx treatment will be a med school norm...but I doubt I will live to see it.
PeteZa
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2015
Posts : 9729
Posted 1/30/2016 4:13 PM (GMT 0)
When my LLMD asked me "what do you want to do now?" after my 1 month on ceftin and biaxin, I put my nose to the grindstone and decided I better figure out what I wanted to do. To give my doctor the benefit of the doubt, maybe he just thought I was learned enough to tell him what to do.
In my research of the internet, I found more successful cases with herbs and so I choose herbs. Trouble then was finding someone that could help me in that regard. I found no doctor close by. They know pills. They know protocols that they studied, but if they have not studied it, they don't know it.
I have an LLMD but his heart is not in it. He is much more concerned about
did I have a Pap, mamogram, what is my blood pressure and when was my last chest x-ray, etc I showed him a list of S.B's herbal protocol I was taking and instead of seeing all of those long hard to pronounce words he focused on the CoQ10 and remarked how it was good in preventing Alzheimer. I thought to myself, I guess he read about
CoQ10 this week.
My internal medicine did not want to talk about
my lyme. He did not want to hear about
my herbs. He said, "when was your last blood test?" My files showed me more quickly than his did.
Interestingly enough, my internal medicine nurse wanted to know everything I was doing for lyme. She actually took notes. Mission accomplished, but in a small way.
Traveler
Elite Member
Joined : May 2007
Posts : 36573
Posted 1/30/2016 4:24 PM (GMT 0)
"Interestingly enough, my internal medicine nurse wanted to know everything I was doing for lyme. She actually took notes. Mission accomplished, but in a small way."
Every single small victory like that make ripples - she will tell many other people what she learned from you!!!
The other thing is that we have to remember there are tons of people that "just don't trust herbs" - like my own hubby. When he was infected last year, he told me that if his doc didn't do what was right, he would do the herbs because he had seen first hand what chronic Lyme looked like and he wanted nothing to do with that! But he wanted pharma abx first. That's okay too, his infection was caught very early - too early for blood tests actually (1, maybe 2 weeks). I helped him make sure that he got the right treatment with a lot of gently pushing the doc to get it, but we got it.
If the infection is caught early enough, I believe a short course of abx works (4 weeks), but it's not just up to the doctors if the patient refuses to use herbs.
PeteZa
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2015
Posts : 9729
Posted 1/30/2016 4:42 PM (GMT 0)
My sister has been out of the country since before Christmas. We had a visit Thursday and she asked how I was doing and she said that our Mom had told her I was doing herbs. My own sister said to me "so are you a witch now or were you one in a previous life?"
There is a huge amount of misconception out there regarding herbs. Because she is my sister with her doctorate degree, but not very street smart, I just giggled. My sister must think that pills grow on trees. LOL!! I asked her where does nitroglycerin come from? She was amazed when I told her it comes from a pretty flower called fox glove.
Traveler
Elite Member
Joined : May 2007
Posts : 36573
Posted 1/30/2016 5:11 PM (GMT 0)
Or how about
aspirin? From the inside bark of the willow tree.
There is a list of medicines that are considered "drugs" not herbs at the bottom of this page:
www.rain-tree.com/plantdrugs.htm#.VqzxZh64uY0
gkamom
Veteran Member
Joined : Apr 2015
Posts : 768
Posted 1/31/2016 12:38 AM (GMT 0)
People forget that "modern pharmaceuticals" are just a little over a hundred years old. Most drugs originated in nature and the pharmaceutical companies just figured out how to synthesize the chemicals and sell them at a profit.
People look down on Chinese medicine as if they are somehow backwards, but China doesn't spend nearly as much on healthcare as the US does.
sweetpeaisme
Regular Member
Joined : Feb 2015
Posts : 498
Posted 1/31/2016 8:21 AM (GMT 0)
My sister who was an RN when 1st diagnoed w/lyme in '05'- of course took the big pharma route...in fact has taken MANY different combos of abx between '05' & 2014! Shes got all sorts of problems from abx overuse such as antibiotc resistence now...
I got diagnosed in 2014, but did HERBALS only and kicked those germs in the...I never had candida problems like her.
I now just have to deal with the dang virals and myco that doesnt seem to want to die. I also believe that my current symtpoms are not due to continued infectiin but permenent damage caused by the chronic M.S.I.D.S.
PAIN, pain, go away!
Georgia Hunter
Veteran Member
Joined : May 2012
Posts : 2688
Posted 1/31/2016 1:49 PM (GMT 0)
What many people fail to realize (including LLMD's) is that herbs contain compounds, elements, and nutrients that our body's need. Each one is different but they have the ingredients that our body is missing and by taking the herb, we replace those elements that we need and function better. In a way, they are like food without the calories. They can cause problems so they are no blank check.
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