What a fine mess!!

So, I fired my adrenal/thyroid doc. Long story short, she was being rude and condescending and I got tired of listening to it, so I slammed my little ole flip phone closed on her - I have to say that while I do feel better about my situation for healing now, slamming a flip phone shut sure isn't nearly as satisfying as slamming a corded phone down!!

In case anyone is wondering about what I'm going to do for my thyroid as it heals, I have a Nurse Practitioner that has said that as long as I'm not asking her to start me on thyroid meds, she can continue the prescription. My labs have never been very low, but my body doesn't utilize what it makes very well, so I must have a very high level of circulating hormones in my blood.

So what I hoping this wonderful community can help me with is I have severe adrenal fatigue. I was only one step above having those little buggers shut down on me according to this doc. I have healed enough that I now sleep a minimum of 4 hours and a maximum of 8 hours now that I'm fighting infections again. A few support herbs just won't do it for me (and I'm already on those).

I was taking Standard Process brand desiccated adrenal, and it worked well for a while - but.... I have trouble finding a good source for it that has it available often enough, as I take a very high dose - 1170 mgs a day ( yes, I know). I also am trying to find a glandular that is in high enough doses per pill so that I can stay away from needing to take 20 or more pills just for my adrenals.

Many of the bottles will only last me for 6 or so days, so each bottle simply can't cost much (or has to be a lot more potent) as my income is very, very limited. So I'm looking to switch to another brand that does not contain Soy, as I'm very allergic to even soy oil.

I'm more than willing to play around with doses and other things in order to get myself to heal, but I have to find a product to work with first.

My main question is, and I know this is a tall order, but if you are taking glandulars that don't require a prescription, what bands have you found that work well for you? At least that will give me a starting point.

Thank you so much, Jrpsf, I really appreciate your help. I have checked into all the options that the Pure Formulas site has to offer and didn't find anything that I could make work - or at least that my brain could comprehend. Maybe I missed things. Hopefully I can find more of what I already take so I can do this slowly. Maybe I'm hoping for too much.

This is what I take now: /www.pureformulas.com/adrenal-desiccated-90-tablets-by-standard-process.html And if you look at the ingredients it says "Two tablets supply approximately 260 mg bovine adrenal." I take 9 of these a day - and this was according to my doctors instructions.

This has allowed me to get more than the 3- 4 hours of sleep daily that I was getting, but now that I'm back in treatment for Bart and Babs, I'm back down to 4 - 6 hours of sleep daily, so I'm concerned about lowering my dose too much right now.

I surely don't mind combining things (less pills to swallow!!!), but the things I take like licorice root, is in combination with 2 other herbs that stop intestinal cramping and I need to take them 3 or 4 times a day.

I wouldn't mind if it had enough ashwagandha in it, as I only take that in the morning and early afternoon as it prevents me from sleeping if I take it later in the day - but the last time I actually saw my doc, she told me that she felt it was still too early for me to be on more than just the ashwagandha (I was thinking of Holy Basil), as she felt my adrenals needed to heal further first.

Of course I never mind more ginger or peppermint or things like that. It helps keep my innerds happy.

ARRRRRRG!! This is frustrating!! Lesson here - don't fire your doc until you have another one lined up!!!

If you are using it for sleep have you ever looked at this product

www.amazon.com/Seriphos-Vegetarian-InterPlexus-Inc-Caps/dp/B000N23AE8/ref=sr_1_1_s_it?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1457639679&sr=1-1&keywords=seriphos+interplexus

I've been taking phosphatidylserine powder by designs for health but my LLND's office is out of stock and online is too pricey. My LLND recommended the Seriphos product. He said a lot of patients have done really well and with that price difference it was worth a try.

Traveler,

You are always so helpful with others and I really want to jump in here and help if I can....but no matter how many times I read your posts, my mind just isn't putting the big picture together...sorry! So here are a few comments/questions.....

1. Am I reading correctly that the main issue, especially since beginning Babs/Bart treatment once more, is insomnia?
2. If insomnia is the main issue, then the other concern is that your adrenals are already depleted and your body needs rest, correct...because lack of sleep is catastrophic to exhausted adrenals?
3. You are also taking thyroid medicine IN ADDITION TO adrenal glandular? What brand/dose?
4. Do you still have Hashimoto's and what are your TPO antibodies like these days?
5. What are your symptoms besides insomnia (anxiety, raciness, mood, etc.)?
6. Have you taken MELATONIN? It knocks me out so quickly and I still feel the effect the next morning, so I only take it when I can have a "melatonin hangover" the next day. I don't take it anymore thankfully, because I sleep fine....but when I was in the craziness of Hashimoto's I only slept in a few hour "chunks."

The tiredoflyme site stated the following about melatonin:

"People with chronic Lyme Disease have a tendency to experience low serotonin levels and this can be directly linked to a lack of sleep. The irony is that the body produces a good portion of its serotonin supply while it sleeps, which the body then converts some into melatonin, the hormone responsible for making a person sleepy, and lack of melatonin could be one reason why people with chronic Lyme Disease experience insomnia."

Okie dokie.......think that will help me understand the bigger picture :)

Trav, FYI

When you have to take a dosage of any medication that is well beyond the normal level, one of 3 things is usually happening. A combination of the 3 can also happen.
1. The medication is not being absorbed.
2. The medication is being absorbed but being metabolized by first pass metabolism.
3. The medication is being absorbed but is being blocked at its receptor site.

With a Lyme patient, I like to focus on #1 and #3. Hepatic impairment on #2 just isn't something I can comment on or deal with from a keyboard. You have been getting benefit from taking the supplement so you are getting absorption. It could be greatly diminished absorption, but I wouldn't focus on that first. I'd focus on the medication being blocked at its receptor site.

There are multiple ways a medication can be blocked from a receptor site. I will focus on what I feel can be an issue with Lyme patients. Many medications are in a way like vitamins. They must bind to specific substrates that catalyze a reaction to occur. This bound molecular compound may form a by product that is able to fit into a receptor. Long story short, if you are deficient of substrates, your medication dosage may have to be extremely high to find enough substrates to bind the receptor.

If it were me, I'd start with Lithium orotate 5mg and see if it can help. It's a substrate for intra-mitochondrial transport for several important reactions. When you don't sleep good, it's often a mitochondrial issue and/or a sign of too much glutamate. You eat a lot of meat so your glutamate levels should be high and your Zn/Cu ratio is probably not good. I don't have the answers for you but I know this is where I would look to find them. Good luck in your search.

blueberrymuffin said...
Hi Traveler. I want to say that you did well, because if you do not have confidence in your doctor, no therapy will work.

My cousin had problems with thyroid and she used Astaxanthin. Her antibodies were high and Astaxanthin helped her a lot.

All the best

Thank you, Blueberry! I've been struggling with whether or not to continue to see her as she is the ONLY doctor in my area that will prescribe meds for adrenal and thyroids based on symptoms AND tests. My test values have been fine, so no one else would touch me, even though I still had symptoms.

I could be very wrong, but from what I'm reading, Astaxanthin is an antioxidant and so I'm not at all comfortable trying to replace a glandular with it - at least not yet. I had severe adrenal fatigue, so I'm not just trying to add a little support for them, but actually add enough support to keep them from crashing again! Twice is enough!

My hope is that once I heal more, I can transition to herbal support only, and then off of that one day as well (hopefully).

Thank you so very much for commenting though! Astaxanthin could be one of the things I use in the future!

Great info! Thanks and hope you are making good progress traveler!

ursamajor68 said...
Traveler,

You are always so helpful with others and I really want to jump in here and help if I can....but no matter how many times I read your posts, my mind just isn't putting the big picture together...sorry! So here are a few comments/questions.....

1. Am I reading correctly that the main issue, especially since beginning Babs/Bart treatment once more, is insomnia?
2. If insomnia is the main issue, then the other concern is that your adrenals are already depleted and your body needs rest, correct...because lack of sleep is catastrophic to exhausted adrenals?
3. You are also taking thyroid medicine IN ADDITION TO adrenal glandular? What brand/dose?
4. Do you still have Hashimoto's and what are your TPO antibodies like these days?
5. What are your symptoms besides insomnia (anxiety, raciness, mood, etc.)?
6. Have you taken MELATONIN? It knocks me out so quickly and I still feel the effect the next morning, so I only take it when I can have a "melatonin hangover" the next day. I don't take it anymore thankfully, because I sleep fine....but when I was in the craziness of Hashimoto's I only slept in a few hour "chunks."

The tiredoflyme site stated the following about melatonin:

"People with chronic Lyme Disease have a tendency to experience low serotonin levels and this can be directly linked to a lack of sleep. The irony is that the body produces a good portion of its serotonin supply while it sleeps, which the body then converts some into melatonin, the hormone responsible for making a person sleepy, and lack of melatonin could be one reason why people with chronic Lyme Disease experience insomnia."

Okie dokie.......think that will help me understand the bigger picture :)

Awww! Ursa, you are just too sweet! Believe me, I get a LOT of help from members here when I need it! That's why after 9 years, they still can't get rid of me! LOL! I love this community, even though the members do change from time to time, they have always been so kind and caring.

So let me answer your questions:
1. Am I reading correctly that the main issue, especially since beginning Babs/Bart treatment once more, is insomnia? No, my adrenal issues started over 2 years ago and I've been in treatment for it for 22 months now (just shy of 2 years for those that can't do the math right now).

2. If insomnia is the main issue, then the other concern is that your adrenals are already depleted and your body needs rest, correct...because lack of sleep is catastrophic to exhausted adrenals?
I think I kinda answered this above - this has been an ongoing issue for far longer than my last set of infections. The irony of this whole thing is that it all happened after I healed the first time in 2012. At the end of 2012, we moved my FIL into our home for what ended up being his last 4 months of life with Alzheimers. I wondered at the time what it would do to my healing, but it didn't matter. I loved that man with all my heart, I was not going to not be there for him.

After a massive fight with my brother, my Mom moved out and since she had no where else to go, she moved to where I live (from Arizona to Arkansas). So, the same week my FIL passed, she was on the road moving here, and I had to find her a place to live, and get it rented and move her in. It didn't end there, and it was all a massive drain on me, and I crashed a year later (2013), with such severe adrenal issues that it brought my thyroid down as well. Between those two organs struggling so much, I gained 40 lbs in 6 weeks. That was a bit unnerving to say the least. When I finally found a doctor that would actually treat me (instead of wanting to do surgery!!!), it was a year later and by that time, I was only one step above having Addison's according to my doc.

So I was reinfected in 2014, treated Lyme, but had asymptomatic Bart and Babs, so now I'm in treatment for that. Adrenal and thyroid therapy has continued throughout this time.

3. You are also taking thyroid medicine IN ADDITION TO adrenal glandular? What brand/dose?
Yes. I started out on Armour, but my insurance co decided they would no longer cover it (Synthroid was good enough according to them), so I found out that they still covered Naturethroid - so I switched over to that. I take 2 grains a day - one am and one no later than 2 pm daily.

4. Do you still have Hashimoto's and what are your TPO antibodies like these days?
Nope!! () All tests have returned to normal for Hashi's! My doc was testing me regularly for TPO antibodies and they have never been of any concern these last 2 years, even though they were such that I was diagnosed with Hashi's by a Non-LLMD back in 2009 before I healed the first time.

5. What are your symptoms besides insomnia (anxiety, raciness, mood, etc.)?
Ha ha ha! Are you sure you want to know about my moods?
My symptoms for my adrenals only, copied from /www.drlam.com/articles/adrenal_fatigue.asp:

*Tendency to gain weight and unable to lose it, especially around the waist. I have the weight gain around the buttocks, hips and thighs from thyroid issues as well.
*Tendency to tremble when under pressure.
*Reduced sex drive.
*Lightheaded when rising from a horizontal position.(but not really bad like POTS - I used to almost pass out each time.)
*Difficulty remembering some things.
*Lack of energy in the mornings and in the afternoon between 3 to 5 pm. (energy? I think it left)
***Feel better suddenly for a brief period after a meal. Still huge for me, especially after eating protein.
*Often feel tired from 9 - 10 pm, but resist going to bed because if I go to sleep then, I'll be up at 3 am.
* Cravings for salty, fatty, and high protein food such as meat and cheese. (I also use a lot of nut butters to cut back on the amount of animal protein)
*Pain in the upper back or neck with no apparent reason.
*Difficulties in getting up in the morning. (although I'm very used to this)
*Lightheaded.

Other signs and symptoms include:

Mild depression.
Food allergies. (mine are soy & MSG)
Lethargy and lack of energy.
Increased effort to perform daily tasks.
Decreased ability to handle stress. (this is still VERY evident)
Dry and thin skin.
Hypoglycemia.
Nervousness.
Palpitations.
Unexplained hair loss.
Alternating constipation and diarrhea.
Dyspepsia.

6. Have you taken MELATONIN? It knocks me out so quickly and I still feel the effect the next morning, so I only take it when I can have a "melatonin hangover" the next day. I don't take it anymore thankfully, because I sleep fine....but when I was in the craziness of Hashimoto's I only slept in a few hour "chunks."

I have used melatonin since 2010. I have used many different amount, currently at only 3 mgs each night. I have no hope of sleep without melatonin, but I also take magnesium, valerian and tryptophan. I have used sleeping pills and at this point in time, I actually sleep better with this combination than I was while on Ambien or Trazodone.

Again, thank you so much for your suggestions and questions! Even questions help me figure things out - like when I was reinfected in 2014. I posted on here that I had been reinfected, and I was bombarded with soooo many questions! LOL! I loved it though, as it allowed me to "work through it" and realized as I answered questions that it really was a reinfection as I described so many aspects of what happened and how my body reacted.

Healing98 said...
Hi Traveler, I haven't been here as often so first of all I am sorry to hear that you are fighting the infection yet again.

I understand your frustration with your doctor as I've had my share of them. cell phone calls often get disconnected so your doctor may not even realize that he/she was "fired", unless words were exchanged to that effect? Even if you fired your doctor, you can still go back to him/her as it is their job to help us unless you don't want anything to do with this doc. Hanging up on a doctor happens more often than you would think so it is not the end of the world. Remember that people with endocrine issues are often very emotional due to the illness so these anger exchanges happen very often. Would you be willing to go back to your doctor until you find a different one?

I, like ursamajor did not get the whole picture in your initial post. Are you on prescription thyroid medication now (natural or synthetic)?

What is your Nurse Practitioner doing with regards to this that your other doc was not doing?

I too suffer a LOT from adrenal fatigue and Hashimoto so I understand the symptoms. I have taken licorice and that did help a little bit. I saw that you are taking it so that's good. I also have a few bottles of adrenal herbs that I haven't taken. I am a bit of a chicken to take them. I do remember that Pure Encapsulations ADR Formula had some very high reviews and is supposed to be a premium product. I don't have the bottle in front of me to check the ingredients vs what you take.


Well, wish I had an answer for you. I will read up on it and see if I can help to suggest something for you.

Hope you feel better.

Thank you for posting, Healing!! I hope that you have been doing okay!! I always wonder when we don't hear from a member for a while, but I also don't feel right hounding them to come post! LOL!

No, there was no doubt where I left things with this doctor at all. I made sure of that. I am and always have been an emotional person, that's what allows me to care so much about everyone here, but I also have learned after being this way for so long to really temper myself with doctors. This one started accusing me of cussing to her secretary because I said "Are you kidding me?" She was told I said "Are you crapt*ng me", and proceeded to tell me how it was because of her previous secretary playing favorites and allowing some patients to run up bills of thousands of $$$ on supplements - I've never owed her more than one months worth ($45) for more than a few weeks as we are on a very tight budget and she pre-approved me for doing this on the first appt.

So got so mad at me for trying to say that I wasn't one of those that was running up bills like that and that I needed those meds, and she literally yelled at me "I'm not done talking yet, be quiet and let me speak!!!" I was a bit dumbfounded, so I stayed quiet and let her speak. Then there was a massive pause (almost a full minute - yes I timed it! LOL!) and so I started to speak and was rewarded with another yelling session. I let her finish that, then I got emotional and told her - rather forcefully - "What do you think this stress that you are bringing to me is doing to my own adrenal health? I'm done with you." and then hung up. I think she got the hint. I absolutely refuse to be treated like that, so there is nothing that can make me go back there. I'm not sure that I was being helped enough as it is since she refused to change my treatments for any reason - like getting reinfected and I asked for more support for my thyroid and adrenals (herbs, or home things, diet, whatever) and she refused to help - not loosing the weight and having lots of symptoms still and she refused to adjust anything - she just took more blood and said she'd call me with the results (often I had to talk to her secretary and couldn't get any questions answered). I'm very relieved that the whole situation is now over and I don't have to fire her face to face - this was easier! LOL!

Yes, I'm on prescription thyroid meds and that's what the Nurse Practitioner can do for me - keep that 'script going. She told me this last year.

My concerns is what do I switch to for my adrenals? As recently as last week I was taking such a high dose (3906 mgs daily) of Bovine adrenal, so I want to be careful with switching brands. I have had to lower my dosage (2970 mgs daily) so that I could order more online and am doing okay (I think, but there's no stress) at my lowered dose, so we'll see. If I can stay at a lowered dose, it will open up a lot of other possibilities for me.

If you have any ideas for me, I'm all ears!! I have and will continue to check into every single suggestion that is given to me until I find one that seems to fit what I need. I sooo appreciate everyone here!!

Hi, Traveler.

I took Pure Encapsulations ADR Formula but then got wary because it has Astralagus and Buhner said to avoid if you have Chronic Lyme and I didn't want to risk it. I purchased Vital Nutrients Adrenal Support and have been very happy with the results. I was taking 6 a day, 2 with each meal, but now I am only taking 4 a day and doing well. The bottle has 120. It costs $50/bottle though.....

Good luck