Provoking an immune response

Reading over the subject above we see Olive Leaf Extract can help provoke a positive result. Are there any other substances that can do the same? Personally, im confused how that works, and besides other substances would like someone to explain it if they could.

I take low dose naltrexone and not sure how that might effect a result, good or bad. It boosts my immune system, but how it effects things.

I found Tillybear's conference presentation notes - this is the section I was referencing:

Q: Talk about immune stimulants
A: When you have a pathogen that can hide inside your cells (lyme isn't the only one), you have a problem. Plus that's isn't the only defense of the pathogen, new research shows they can share dna with your normal bacteria and masquerade as a normal bacteria among other ways.

So when these pathogens hide in various ways, your B cell response is still going, firing and trying to find the germs that are now hidden. When this goes on for months and years, the B cells start making antibodies to the cells that the pathogens are hiding in. If they are hiding in your neural cells, your B cells start making antibodies against the nerve cells. Or your thyroid, or your heart, etc, etc.

This is the definition of an autoimmune disease: you have antibodies to your own tissues because the germs are either not killable or they are hiding in your cells.

And every time you fire an immune reaction or you STIMULATE your immune system by supplements, you are killing your body.

www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3614097

-p

"And every time you fire an immune reaction or you STIMULATE your immune system by supplements, you are killing your body."

Oh great.

Hmmm - wish I'd taken some olive leaf before my blood draw yesterday - but, it is what it is. Thanks for the great info! and great question.

On one of the talks in last week's Lyme Summit, Kevin Conners was talking about this very thing, but with echinacea.

I ordered GSE defense plus a couple of weeks ago, and just started taking it a week ago.

Two days ago I began feeling like garbage, and at one point almost vomited and passed out. I have frequent flyer platinum status at my local ER, and the treating physician asked me if I had added anything new to my treatment. At first I said no, but then later that day it hit me that I had just began the GSE DP. When I read the label, I realized it had echinacea in it, and I recalled Kevin Conners talking about echinacea causing an immune response, as part of his talk in last week's Lyme Summit.

Coincidentally, my blood at the ER came back with elevated glucose and low TSH. Dr. said the low TSH (which means high thyroid) could cause the elevated glucose.

But then today I not only began running a slight fever and my face became all flushed and feverish, I also noticed slight staining on my underwear, and I have been fully menopausal for over a year, with no sign of a period. I cannot help but wonder if the low TSH, the elevated glucose and the sudden onset of a slight period are not only related, but were caused by the echinacea. Needless to say, I am ditching the bottle.

(If anyone wants it, feel free to email me and we can work out a favorable arrangement.) I took regular GSE for two months and felt great on it, and noticed some progress with treatment, and my hormone levels were never altered. Someone recommended the GSE TD, and like an idiot I bought it.

Very interesting subject......

I found the glucose comment unusual because hyperthyroidism usually causes low glucose due to increased metabolism.

And, I'd like to clarify something about LDN - it doesn't boost the immune system specifically....it modulates the immune system.

There's a big difference with that.

An immune booster is something that stimulates the immune system like echinacea.

And immune modulator balances the immune system.....and this prevents/has the potential to heal autoimmune disease.

Here's some info on LDN by Elaine Moore, author of "The Promise of Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy"

elaine-moore.com/Portals/0/PDF%20Files/LDNBenefits.pdf

In my simple mind, I consider LDN to be like an adaptogen which also modulates the immune system.

I believe I have an over active immune system and it sucks. Almost anything I take set off a response.

Be careful about the whole idea of an "overactive" immune system. While it's true that we can become inflammatory in unproductive ways I think this binary view between autoimmunity and herxheimer can prevent people from healing. Here are some mechanisms of autoimmunity...

Molecular mimicry - a form of biomimicry in which pathogen masquerades as self tissue through expression of molecular patterns that are found on the tissue it infects. This causes a delayed immune response and the ultimate consequence is that antibodies that attack the pathogen end up attacking the tissue as well since they "look" the same.

Epitope spreading - preexisting inflammation from an infection leads to break down of tissue and activated antigen presenting cells end up presenting human tissue to autoreactive lymphocytes. However, only these antigen presenting cells that have been activated by pathogen-associated molecular patterns can provide the necessary costimulus for lymphocyte activation. Once that signal is lost they can not activate those cells no matter how much self-antigen they present.

Bystander activation - cross talk from inflammatory environment nonspecifically activates autoreactive cells.

Cryptic antigens - like epitope spreading in a way except that the antigens are in such small numbers they don't induce tolerance.

Superantigens - toxins produced by microorganisms that non-selectively activate large numbers of lymphocytes.

So the point here is... in many if not all these cases the persistent infection maintains the autoimmune disease. As we all know when we get a herxheimer we disperse these microorganisms antigenic material and become inflamed. The same process that caused the autoimmunity in the first place. Thus we often flare. As an example OspA has antigenic cross-reactivity with neural epitopes (molecular mimicry). Abx = dead borrelia = less immune suppression and dispersal of OspA = secretion of OspA/anti-neural antibodies => increase in CIDP (autoimmune neuropathy). Immune clearance of OspA => symptom improvement.

So this is not to say that you can't take something that exacerbates your autoimmunity without doing so productively (perhaps you enhance bystander activation without actually touching the underlying cause), but the things you take that help will likely make it worse in the short term as well. Its all about going low and slow. Small increases that bring you just slightly above the symptom threshold. Let it sit for a few days and see if the flare goes away as you maintain the dose. If it clears it's probably just a herx. If not you might want to reevaluate your protocol. But the point is we need to steer clear of generalizations like "immune stimulants are bad for people with autoimmunity". Immune activation is not a binary thing and people with autoimmunity often really need to stimulate a more productive arm of their immune system.

TOOTY said...
I agree with Pirouette and Psilociraptor that low and slow is best for treatment. Adding an antimicrobial/s for a provocation is fine and sometimes necessary for testing. It's a routine practice by LLMDs.

As has been said, attacking the infections TOO strongly can cause damage to your body because the immune system can/will attack the cells/tissue that the germ is residing in. I firmly believe that is simply what all autoimmunity is..... the body attacking self BECAUSE OF WHAT IS IN THOSE CELLS/TISSUES! Mainstream medical community has not figured that out yet. And, they don't want to know. Therefore very little, if any, research is being directed to find the offending pathogen(s).

In regards to immune stimulants, the immune system sometimes has to be "primed," but one has to be careful that the resulting immune wake-up does not get out of control. Immune system modulation with a "side dish" of immune stimulation/ strengthening is best for chronic microbial infections.


The most important thing, however, is to have sufficient anti-microbials on board to actually kill the offending pathogen(s). That is the ONLY path to healing. You can stimulate & modulate the immune system until you die (punning intended), but you will never get well without getting rid of the infection involved with the autoimmunity.

yes yes yes ....how do we prove this ...yes ...