White Blood Count decreasing even though off antibiotics??

*I had lyme for 7 years undiagnosed. 3 years on antibiotics.*

In August my WBC was about 2.7. Normal is around 4.0+. I stopped antibiotics in September and was off them until late January. I was on abx for a few weeks and then got off in Feb. In February my white blood count was 2.5. I just saw a lyme literate gastroenterologist and today got my results that my wbc was 2.3.

Why does my wbc keep decreasing? I've been of antibiotics for a long time now, so shouldn't it be increasing. Also, I do not have strong Lyme symptoms (and no symptoms that point to co-infections). In fact my remaining symptoms I attributed to Candida, which is why I went to the gastro doctor. He said all my symptoms sound like candida except for muscle twitching (which I haven't experienced much in the past month) and eye pain.

The Lyme doctor in Feb told me he wanted me to get off everything including herbs. A few weeks later I was still experiencing some symptoms like muscle twitching and he still didn't want me on anything but said I could try Samento to boost my wbc (I take Cats Claw).

Over the summer and into March I was on Tri-Fortify Orange which is basically high doses of Vitamin C. And I've been on Cats claw for about a month. Both these things are said to increase WBC yet mine has actually DECREASED! WHY?

My gastro doctor suggested I should see a hematologist. My WBC is ridiculously low so much that its dangerous if I get an infection i could end up in the hospital (and probably get another infection there).
Would a hematologist actually help?

Girlie,
"When I went in to see my GP, worried about it...she said it wasn't low enough to be concerned...unless it went below 2.0"

Mine is getting there though. There is no reason for it to be decreasing. Unlike you, I am not on treatment. I'd understand if I was still on treatment and it was slightly decreasing. But i'm not, and I haven't been for a few months.

I have been learning recently from my LLMD that WBC being low also "can" be caused by your body finally identifying and fighting bartonella as it did in my case. Something weird happens in that your white blood cells actually identify bartonella they do a suicide charge to kill bartonella which also kills the white blood cell then causing your WBC to go down.

@Girlie I strongly think that is happening with your case as you have bart

@Afiya4health maybe a bartonella test just to see?

Just a thought

Jackie Moon interesting hypothesis on the WBC being low due to Bartonella I think you may be right. When I was admitted to the ER on Feb 2, 2016 it was 2 weeks after I started treating Bart with Rifampin/Cipro and my WBC was 4.29. On Mar 17, 2016 I had them checked again and they were 3.9. Not a big difference but lower and WBC isn't supposed to move much.

Building up your WBC seems to make sense. I know Cats Claw does this any other herbs/supplements?

I'd be curious what a hematologist would say.

As I progress through treatment, one thing that has become evident is that tests don't always tell the story that the medical industry thinks they do--or use them to tell. I've lost count for how many tests are supposed to indicate x or y but the results go against logic or what appears to be happening clinically or contradict other tests. So, if nothing else makes sense--I would not hesitate to challenge the test and ask if your WBCs are really dropping.

I was so overcome with lyme & co, 4 different viral loads, a yeast/fungal infection and likely parasites and not in treatment, not detoxing, not eating, I could barely get out of bed. My CD57 was 37 (very low) and I forget what my WBC count was but it was "normal". After implementing a very intense and successful protocol, successfully detoxing, 2 yrs later, I have improved from nonfunctional to say, 75% functional yet my CD57 hasn't improved and my WBC count hasn't changed.

Also, what my lyme experience has taught me is that the medical profession understands only a fraction of how the immune system works in a healthy body. And since little is understood about lyme & co, there is even less understood about how these infections affect the immune system and functions as a result from various treatment methodologies.

Even the tests that are given to determine immune function that are used to gauge level of infection, efficacy of managing illness and progress of treatment are pretty unreliable--in their ability to provide consistent useful information or to gauge what is really going on with the treatment process. So it's going to be tough to get an answer to your question.

Awhile back we had a good discussion about primary and secondary functions of the immune system and how they responds to dominant infections like lyme & co and other infections or viral loads, etc, which might be of interest to you. I can't remember the title of the thread but maybe someone bookmarked it and can post a link.

-p

I used to think getting a baseline was always good but now I think it's mostly good. The following article mentions that an LLMD evaluated the CD57 of a few of his patients over the course of a few days, and found that some of them had levels that changed by as much as 50% throughout the course of one day… so I am feeling less and less inclined to read into what these numbers mean - for any of us.
www.publichealthalert.org/role-of-c3a-and-c4a-complement-proteins-in-chronic-lyme-disease.html

MDs might not tell us this but I think they are mostly useful for for treatment documentation (CYA) and insurance purposes—particularly for the lyme patient. And I think it makes a lot of sense so I usually do the tests my LLMD requests.

-p

I agree with you - it is a very sad and frustrating situation. Some of the interactions with MDs I've read about on this forum and elsewhere and my own experiences have colored my view of the medical profession permanently. But it has also opened my eyes to reality and I interact with the medical profession differently now too. I wouldn't be alive right now if it wasn't for the internet and my intermittent ability to research my own answers.

But we also have to keep in mind that the really good MDs and nurses and health care professionals are also caught up in a morphing "managed care" system, politics, blatant obfuscation, a big-pharma-run medical field, a surging epidemic, lack of funding, a changing economy and many other problems that result in lyme & co suffers being left behind. There ARE good ones out there—it's up to us to find them and support them.

One of these days it's going to be not only safe but encouraged to herald the heroic efforts of our LLMDs and NDs. I really look forward to doing that.

My LLMD was successfully sued last year by an insurance malpractice company—for treating a lyme patient. Out here in CA, MDs are protected from prosecution for using alternative treatments, but only if they can afford the $500k+ required to fight their charges in court. Mine is a 401.c3 and couldn't raise the funds to do this. The aftermath has directly affected my treatment (she's lost her staff which has been a communication nightmare for me for months now, had to move into another MD's office which adds to the confusion and distractions, I had to pay for extra tests, and much much more). I'm furious.

Anyway, the point is to get the tests done but don't worry too much if they are confusing and not providing the info you want or need—it might not be there.

-p

There have been times where doctors have commented on my having a low WBC count. I always brushed it off as just the infections.

Most recently, I was going in for some visits regarding pains I'd been having in my neck, wondering if it could have been a thyroid issue. The doctor did not even pursue the possibility. Did do some blood work and give me a CT scan, which was good (nice to know it's not throat cancer or something, I guess).

Again, my WBC was low.

The reason I mention this, for the longest time, though I didn't get my blood checked often, there were a few times where none of the doctors ever made mention of my WBC count, which makes me wonder if it was registering as normal.

I never ask for the test results, because.. I kind of gave up on getting real help from the doctors, at least as far as Lyme.

Whenever they'd say things like that, I would always think to myself, "yeaaah.. I wonder why?"

Fluctuation.

I wonder what it means..

I was supposed to go back for a retest the other day, but forgot. Might see, just out of curiosity.

Post Edited (NotQuiteAntonio) : 5/20/2016 10:40:19 PM (GMT-6)

afiya4health -

Were the tests measuring natural killer cells perhaps?
Something I just read indicates that yeast/fungal overgrowth can lower your NK cell count.

-p

Wbc are made in the bone marrow...the side effect on bacrim says aplastic anemia ...idk ..there is ivig if yoh can affordnit ...or bvt but i think it may be you drove infection into marrow...do you have mycoplasm or cpn?

I found this - although in the RARE category - fluconazole can cause low wbc



www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-3774-5052/diflucan-oral/fluconazole---oral/details/list-sideeffects


www.everydayhealth.com/drugs/fluconazole

You do need to get the Candida under control.

Just make sure you are getting monthly liver function tests and WBC count.

How long is the treatment?