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Lyme Testing - Does everyone treated for lyme eventually test positive on Elisa and Western Blot?

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Posted 6/1/2016 12:49 AM (GMT 0)
I've read a bit about through the historical posts but can't find the answer to this.

If someone has tested negative on Elisa and Western Blot (but positive on Igenix), and is treated for lyme, will they eventually show positive on Elisa and Western Blot?

Always? And when in treatment?

Has anyone seen journal articles on this?

Thanks!
Posted 6/1/2016 12:54 AM (GMT 0)
Do you mean on a test done by a different lab?

The test most of us get at Igenex is a Western Blot. So, you're wondering if you will come up positive on a Elisa and WB done at a lab other than Igenex where you previously tested negative?

maybe, probably not. Most labs are inaccurate at testing for lyme disease. Igenex Lab specializes in Lyme Disease and co-infection testing...and even then...there are a lot of false negatives.
Posted 6/1/2016 1:15 AM (GMT 0)
A person must also take into account that out of the 100 strains of Borrelia (Lyme) here in the U.S., only 2 strains will currently create a positive ELISA or Western Blot.
Posted 6/1/2016 1:49 AM (GMT 0)
What I mean is -- once a person creates antibodies for whatever Lyme strain they have, following x period of treatment -- if they were to do the ELISA or Western Blot tests again (for which they tested negative in the past) would they show as positive because they now have a whole whack of antibodies?

Also, if a person did have lyme, could ELISA or Western Blot tests come out negative for one of two reasons: (a) wrong strain; and / or (b) too few antibodies produced by the person's immune system to register as positive on the test?

Thanks
Posted 6/1/2016 2:27 AM (GMT 0)
My son had four negative ELISA and Western Blot over 10+ years, before I found out these weren't sufficient (no little line at the bottom of the test saying "oh, by the way, this really isn't a sufficient or definitive test") and he was diagnosed by Igenix and then his LLMD.

We have a fairly disbelieving local family physician, "me thinks," who wants (after 7 months of treatment out of country) to run those lyme tests again (ELISA and WB) and I'm just trying to figure out the value and if it's even possible that they could show positive. Then, I've got to figure out the motivation.
Posted 6/1/2016 2:43 AM (GMT 0)
Actually I do not know his reasoning or motivation. But, why waste the money??? You have a positive test result and you need nothing more. You have a LLMD and treatment and you are paying for that. Why put yourselves through the stress of inaccurate testing?

My doctor (internal medicine) does not want to be involved with my lyme. He knows I have it. It is in my file and he knows what I am doing for it. He cautions me about blood work, etc. but he stays out of the lyme business and I am glad.
Posted 6/1/2016 6:07 AM (GMT 0)

LymeMother said...
What I mean is -- once a person creates antibodies for whatever Lyme strain they have, following x period of treatment -- if they were to do the ELISA or Western Blot tests again (for which they tested negative in the past) would they show as positive because they now have a whole whack of antibodies?

Also, if a person did have lyme, could ELISA or Western Blot tests come out negative for one of two reasons: (a) wrong strain; and / or (b) too few antibodies produced by the person's immune system to register as positive on the test?

Thanks

If a person did have lyme, the Elisa and/or WB tests can come out negative because of immune system suppression and not being able to produce antibodies. That happens all the time. It's often a negative result...but the person DOES have lyme.

...and yes, also if they have a strain that's not tested. I did read that the strains that are tested (I think it's 2) are the most common strains but that certainly doesn't guarantee it's one of the strains the person has.

So are you talking about a positive test on a non-Igenex Lab Western Blot? I really don't know as most labs that don't specialize in Lyme disease testing...are sub-standard. That's why we recommend people get a Western Blot test using Igenex Lab.
Posted 6/1/2016 10:08 PM (GMT 0)
non-Igenex Lab Western Blot...just the standard Cdn medical system tests.

My son's had those tests run several times in the past and they've been negative...I was just trying to figure out the objective of the local physician requesting they be run again. I thought I'd read somewhere that once people have treatment most then show positive - mainly just wondered if that was always true and how far into treatment one would have to be to see a difference.

My sense, however, is that this is the local physician making some sort of case that my son doesn't have lyme and to repeat the mantra popular with docs here that the US Igenex type companies are run by unscrupulous operators preying on folks like us. Never mind that there has been some slight improvement AND the bullseye rash displayed clearly (for a short 24 hours) two months into treatment. You may know the drill by the disbelievers...
Posted 6/1/2016 11:14 PM (GMT 0)
I am Canadian also. I tested negative 1 time on Canadian test and 3 times on Igenex between 2006 and 2011, but with what I now know to be significant bands and IND. I was also on various antibiotics off and on through those years. No LLMD to guide or prescribe treatment so it was hit or miss.

Finally, after being off everything for about 3 years and continuing to go downhill, I found a ND with familiarity in Lyme. He tested again, and I was positive on the IFA (>80) and CDC positive on IGM (31++ 39+ 41+ 83-93+).

When I excitedly took those results to my GP of 20 years, he discounted them because they were done at a US lab. He generously offered me the opportunity to have the test redone using the Canadian "gold standard" testing. I pointed out that Canada uses the same IDSA criteria to determine a positive result, and if I was CDC positive in the US, I was CDC positive in Canada. I declined the "gold standard" because like you, I felt he wanted to make the case that I didn't have Lyme. He's wrong.

So to answer your original question, no, I don't think that everyone will test positive once they have been on antibiotics.
Posted 6/1/2016 11:17 PM (GMT 0)
Many people in an attempt to get a positive WB will take something to enhance the immune function. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. It's said that once you are positive on a WB, you will always test positive, but I've not seen where this has ever been challenged or tested out.

Simply ask the doctor to show you (with proof like articles supporting this) what else can cause a bulls eye rash - because there is nothing else. Some docs will try to say it's ringworm, which is really goofy as that can be disproven so very easily. First of all, ringworm is a fungal infection of the skin. It doesn't cause body wide pain and other symptoms. if a black light is held over a ringworm area, "The fungus will fluoresce (glow) under black light. If you’re infected, the areas of the skin where fungus is located will glow.: (www.healthline.com/health/ringworm#Symptoms5, and it's easily treated with antifungals most often.

You can show this to your doctor: www.igenex.com/licenses/PHYSICIAN_ANNUAL_NOTICE_2016.pdf They are a medicare approved testing facility, which means they have standards they have to keep.

You can go here to see if Igenex is licensed in your state, or just show this to your doctor as well. They hold licenses in 6 different states - it's not a second rate lab, only a specialty lab. Igenex also has lots of negative results (many doctors claim falsely that Igenex never puts out any (or many) negatives, which is very untrue).

Plus your son's response to treatment should mean something to a doctor, no matter what kind of practice they have.
Posted 6/2/2016 12:17 AM (GMT 0)

Volyme said...
I am Canadian also. I tested negative 1 time on Canadian test and 3 times on Igenex between 2006 and 2011, but with what I now know to be significant bands and IND. I was also on various antibiotics off and on through those years. No LLMD to guide or prescribe treatment so it was hit or miss.

Finally, after being off everything for about 3 years and continuing to go downhill, I found a ND with familiarity in Lyme. He tested again, and I was positive on the IFA (>80) and CDC positive on IGM (31++ 39+ 41+ 83-93+).

When I excitedly took those results to my GP of 20 years, he discounted them because they were done at a US lab. He generously offered me the opportunity to have the test redone using the Canadian "gold standard" testing. I pointed out that Canada uses the same IDSA criteria to determine a positive result, and if I was CDC positive in the US, I was CDC positive in Canada. I declined the "gold standard" because like you, I felt he wanted to make the case that I didn't have Lyme. He's wrong.

So to answer your original question, no, I don't think that everyone will test positive once they have been on antibiotics.

I also tested negative on the Canadian test. That was march or April, 2014. I then tested IgM positive with Igenex in the beginning of July. (end of June blood draw) My GP accepted my results and asked for a copy. She told me during my last appointment "You know more about Lymd Disease than I do"...lol.
I guess I am lucky she's on-board.
I didn't realize there was a Canadian "gold standard" testing...that is different from what we usually get?
Posted 6/2/2016 12:36 AM (GMT 0)
Girlie, you are so fortunate to have your GP on board. It would make things infinitely easier.

Pretty sure that Canadian doctors have bought the line that our testing is "gold standard" even though it is just the dismal normal testing. I chuckled when I read something on Twitter during the Lyme conference that a presenter defending the testing called it "gold standard". Seems that they all read the same memo.
Posted 6/2/2016 12:42 AM (GMT 0)
Volyme - I am waiting for my GP to say 'that's enough antibiotics now'.

I make sure I tell her that I'm on a break when I do one....and then I just 'forget' to tell her when I'm back on the antibiotics...

I try not to mention the word antibiotics at my appointments...just letting a sleeping dog lie.
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