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Posted 10/7/2016 9:18 PM (GMT 0)
For example:

Prozac (Fluoxetine) uses CYP3A4 in metabolism

Baical Skullcap is said to inhibit CYP3A4 by Buhner

-Therefore do not take Baical (chinese) skullcap if you are taking Prozac

Luckily this discussion came up because I am on Prozac for Lyme related symptoms and just started taking Baical Skullcap yesterday....guess I will stop with that herb

Thanks!
Posted 10/7/2016 9:21 PM (GMT 0)
Girlie- I would look up each herb individually. I'm guessing if the herbs have an effect on P-450/CYP metabolisation it woud have been listed in Buhner's Book "healing lyme" like Chinese Skullcap is with CYP3A4
Posted 10/7/2016 9:24 PM (GMT 0)
I love this stuff. It's overwhelming though when it's YOUR body you are experimenting with, pumping it with drugs and herbs.

I'm trying to use food, exercise, and sleep as medicine, now that I've been in remission for a couple of years. Starting to get the mind-over-matter thing, how it is as strong as all these little health hacks.
Posted 10/7/2016 10:26 PM (GMT 0)
This is all very interesting. I haven't been on abx for over 18 months. They didn't help me. I am going the herbal route now. In defense of Buhner, at least in the co-infection (mycoplasma/bartonella) book, he does give the warning on Chinese Skullcap and many others as far as abx goes. It's a very clear contraindiction actually. I just started Chinese Skullcap on Tuesday in fact.

this is all very interesting, and I am definitely going to go back and make even more notes about each herb as I decide what to do next.

Thank you for this post.
Posted 10/8/2016 3:42 PM (GMT 0)
This is a topic I think about from time to time since staring the thread almost 4 months ago.

Yes, lots of herbs interact with P450 pathways and thus, medications, and yes I think this fact is understated in Healing Lyme.

I went off all herbs for a month once I started Rifampin and Biaxin, but have since added herbs back in.

When I'm off herbs, I just feel like I'm not doing enough to heal. It was a mental thing, but I just wasn't comfortable leaving everything up to antibiotics, when they had done nothing for me the 9 months previous.

So about a month after stopping herbs, I added them back in.

The medications I'm taking now are Rifampin, Biaxin, Tindamax (pulse), and Alinia (pulse).

The herbs I'm taking concurrently are Artemisinin (pulse), Cat's Claw, Chinese Cat's Claw, Japanese Knotweed, Eleuthero, Aswagandha, Cordyceps, Black Walnut, Cloves, Olive Leaf, Beyond Balance MC-BAB-2, and CSA.

Plus a bunch of supplements on top of that.

I'm sure there's interactions happening, but at this point I just don't care.

For what it's worth, most herbs seems to be P450 inhibitors, meaning they increase the effect of the medications. Fewer herbs seem to be P450 inducers, which would decrease the effect of medications.
Posted 10/8/2016 3:48 PM (GMT 0)
This is such a fascinating post. May I ask which Buhner book this is in and what page? I just got the book Healing Lyme (I think it's the new edition).

Itnotjustlyme, I'm with you. However, if mind over matter and healthy diet/exercise killed lyme I would be back at the gym. I have remained super positive (except for two very dark days), I eat unbelievably well, incorporating many superfoods, and lots of organic greens, take all the right supplements, etc... I don't think bacterial infections can be cleared this way. I hope I am wrong. Please know I'm not trying to start an arugment, I so believe in what you believe in. Just not sure that's enough for me. Hopefully you have a mild strain and that will be enough for you. I would love to hear updates. I really believe that being more hopeful and believing you can heal goes a long way.
Posted 10/8/2016 3:54 PM (GMT 0)
Huddie, herb/drug interactions really aren't talked about much in Healing Lyme.

However, in the newest edition of the book, on page 417, Buhner lists interactions with Chinese Skullcap and CYP3A4. Chinese Skullcap seems to be an especially strong inhibitor, so I believe that's why he mentions it here.

This little blurb on page 417 is what prodded me to look up what other herbs share this interaction.
Posted 10/8/2016 3:56 PM (GMT 0)
The other thing we simply can't forget is that it's up to the patient to double check everything - even with doctors! How many of us have had bad reactions/experiences even though we followed every word the doctor told us? I know I have MANY times, and even had to argue with doctors that wanted to give me abx that I'm allergic to!!! So no matter what form of medicine (modality) we choose to use, it's up to us to double check information, and to make sure that we aren't taking something that will react badly to what we are already using.
Posted 10/8/2016 10:01 PM (GMT 0)
Mustard Seed - I don't know if this has been talked about on this thread (I did a quick read) - but you do know that taking Rifampin with biaxin - can alter the blood levels of either medication?


Yet, it is a combo often used...in fact (sorry to sound like a broken record) - the bart guru Dr. M. uses this combo.

I guess what I'm saying...is the LLMD's are finding even IF they are in the Cytochrome P450 group - they can still be effective...

What does that mean in regard to the herbs? IDK - but maybe we're worrying too much about it?
(I know I am.... yeah )
Posted 10/8/2016 10:30 PM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...
The other thing we simply can't forget is that it's up to the patient to double check everything - even with doctors! How many of us have had bad reactions/experiences even though we followed every word the doctor told us? I know I have MANY times, and even had to argue with doctors that wanted to give me abx that I'm allergic to!!! So no matter what form of medicine (modality) we choose to use, it's up to us to double check information, and to make sure that we aren't taking something that will react badly to what we are already using.

I read that you shouldn't take milk thistle with mepron and emailed my doc about it. She told me to stop the MT. So I guess that was an oversight on her part?
Posted 10/8/2016 11:01 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
Mustard Seed - I don't know if this has been talked about on this thread (I did a quick read) - but you do know that taking Rifampin with biaxin - can alter the blood levels of either medication?


Yet, it is a combo often used...in fact (sorry to sound like a broken record) - the bart guru Dr. M. uses this combo.

I guess what I'm saying...is the LLMD's are finding even IF they are in the Cytochrome P450 group - they can still be effective...

What does that mean in regard to the herbs? IDK - but maybe we're worrying too much about it?
(I know I am.... yeah )

Ya I've read that before, and my LLMD mentioned it too while prescibing it. Though like you said, that combo seems to very popular for bart.

Ya it's possible that we're worrying too much, but just something to be aware of I guess. Especially if you're doing like a dozen herbs that are all interacting with the P450... might make more of a difference than a single medication, but I have no idea.

Dogsblood, yes that's an oversight by your LLMD. Milk thistle should never be taken with Mepron. Also make sure you take lots of fat with your Mepron... the more fat you take with it, the more medication your body absorbs.
Posted 10/9/2016 12:04 PM (GMT 0)
I don't know how in depth ya'll want to go on this, but I've read some good stuff on it in the past.
Posted 10/9/2016 1:17 PM (GMT 0)

Georgia Hunter said...
I don't know how in depth ya'll want to go on this, but I've read some good stuff on it in the past.

Would love an abridged version of your thoughts GH.
Posted 10/9/2016 2:04 PM (GMT 0)

dogsblood said...

Traveler said...
The other thing we simply can't forget is that it's up to the patient to double check everything - even with doctors! How many of us have had bad reactions/experiences even though we followed every word the doctor told us? I know I have MANY times, and even had to argue with doctors that wanted to give me abx that I'm allergic to!!! So no matter what form of medicine (modality) we choose to use, it's up to us to double check information, and to make sure that we aren't taking something that will react badly to what we are already using.

I read that you shouldn't take milk thistle with mepron and emailed my doc about it. She told me to stop the MT. So I guess that was an oversight on her part?

Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about. We have to double check things ourselves as these things simply will happen to most of us.
Posted 10/9/2016 2:07 PM (GMT 0)

Mustard Seed said...

Georgia Hunter said...
I don't know how in depth ya'll want to go on this, but I've read some good stuff on it in the past.

Would love an abridged version of your thoughts GH.

A lot of things are going to inhibit the P450 pathway, the concern would be "how much" they inhibit it and "which" isoenzyme do they inhibit. 3A4 gets a bad wrap because so many drugs inhibit it, but many natural items do as well. Lets use the previously mentioned Quercetin as an example. It blocks the isoenzyme CYP3A4 at 100% and blocks CYP2C9 close to 70%. Can this be a problem? Certainly. Is it a problem? Most of the time, no it is not. If you start adding in other items that require CYP3A4 to be utilized then it can quickly become a problem as more oxidative stress occurs. These isoenzymes are directly related to methylation so the more proficient you are at methylating, the more your liver can handle the load.

Many flavinoids inhibit CYP3A4 as do many other moieties that we ingest every day. It gets interesting when you start looking at the chemical structures of the foods we eat and start seeing the patterns (hydroxyl groups and hydrophobic agents). The eating recommendations I've given in the past are based off these patterns.

Catechins, epigallocatechins, and epicatechins are all inhibitors of these enzymes but just to a lesser extent. We all agree that these are good things for us yet they can cause issues.
Posted 10/9/2016 4:51 PM (GMT 0)
Agree with Huddle.....on itsjustnotlyme post. If it was about diet and exercise I would have not got sick as my body would have fought it on its own. Not so.
However it did help me from not being lyme crippled.
Posted 10/14/2016 5:08 PM (GMT 0)

goldengoose said...
For example:

Prozac (Fluoxetine) uses CYP3A4 in metabolism

Baical Skullcap is said to inhibit CYP3A4 by Buhner

-Therefore do not take Baical (chinese) skullcap if you are taking Prozac

Or
Phase 1: Take Scullcap
Phase 2: Take half dose of Prozac for the same effect
...
Profit! idea
Posted 10/14/2016 6:07 PM (GMT 0)

itsnotjustlyme said...
I love this stuff. It's overwhelming though when it's YOUR body you are experimenting with, pumping it with drugs and herbs.

I'm trying to use food, exercise, and sleep as medicine, now that I've been in remission for a couple of years. Starting to get the mind-over-matter thing, how it is as strong as all these little health hacks.

Artermix - From this post, I don't see itsnotjustlyme saying to treat lyme disease with food, exercise and sleep.

She says she is in remission for a couple of years...and is using that to stay healthy.

Unless I missed something?

We don't need to be on antibiotics or herbs for lyme and co's for the rest of our lives.
Posted 10/14/2016 7:14 PM (GMT 0)
Oh yeah.....?? So far no luck. Looks like this is going to be all my life at the moment. How realistic it is to continue living 24/7 with abx and supplements? Not very... unless you stay always home and decide to have a different life. The Buhner protocol alone is 8 to 10 months long. Some people have been on antibiotics for years!!!!! What is after that? The damage left from it or whatever is left of our lives???
That is what I have been doing for months. But to me that is not life. I am truly better off under the ground.
Posted 10/14/2016 7:51 PM (GMT 0)
Artermix - We need to work on getting well first...and take it from there.


Believe me, I know your frustration - I've been at it for two years now...am I tired of it all? heck - yah.
Do I get 'down' about it? Yup.
Will I give up? Nope.

I don't know when I'll turn the corner...so I won't give up....ever.

I just keep reading stories of those people who got well...some more quick than others.
I've posted before, but a lady I've been communicating with - is finally symptom free and off all antibiotics after 3.5 years.
What if she had given up at 2 years? She is living life...now and enjoying every minute of it.
That seems like a long time...but I've already got 2 years under my belt....what's another year and a half?

(But, she did start to feel improvement at the 2 year mark)

She told me "Don't give up"
Posted 10/14/2016 9:08 PM (GMT 0)
Mustard Seed, I see that you started Biaxin and Rifampin in June. I was just prescribed both and and am still working my way up to full dosages of both. I'm wondering how you've been doing on that protocol? I've heard people herx a lot so am pretty scared...

I hope you've noticed some improvement?

Joanie
Posted 10/14/2016 9:37 PM (GMT 0)
Joan - I am also on biaxin and Rifampin.

I took it daily from end November for a few months.

Now i'm on it again but pulsing it M/W/F for two or three weeks on, one week off.

Ive had some improvement...
Posted 10/14/2016 11:21 PM (GMT 0)

JoanJet said...
Mustard Seed, I see that you started Biaxin and Rifampin in June. I was just prescribed both and and am still working my way up to full dosages of both. I'm wondering how you've been doing on that protocol? I've heard people herx a lot so am pretty scared...

I hope you've noticed some improvement?

Joanie

I've had a small improvement... like maybe 10-15% after 4 months... not much, but better than the previous 0% I guess.

When I started Rifampin at 600mg once a day, I got a minor one day herx. It could have just been a coincidence it was so short.

When I upped the Rifampin to 600mg twice a day, I didn't notice much herx. Ten or so days later I started feeling terrible, but I don't know if that was the Rifampin, or the Tindamax or Alinia which I staggered a few days after the Rifampin/Biaxin.
Posted 10/15/2016 12:52 AM (GMT 0)
So 600mg twice daily of Rifampin - that is a high dose, Mustard Seed. Do you have a LLMD that prescribed that?
Posted 10/15/2016 1:10 AM (GMT 0)
Yes that's what my llmd prescribed. I did the lower dose for 3 months first.
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