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Posted 6/17/2016 11:03 AM (GMT 0)
Just something for you people to think about when you tried metronidazole and had to discontinue it because of severe herxing or side effects. Last week, I read a research paper that studied the effects of different antibiotics on the GI bacteria Bilophila wadsworthia. They used the most common antibiotics as well as some of the strongest ones we have. Of all of the antibiotics tested, the only antibiotic to achieve a 100% elimination of Bilophila was metronidazole. I am beginning to believe that many of us with Lyme have extremely high levels of Bilophila in not only our GI tract but also in our body. It has been implicated in appendix problems as well as in our mouth causing periodonitis and issues of the mouth. Around 4% of the "normal" population have it cultured from vaginal smears. Sick people like us would be more susceptible to having it colonize other places. Just something to ponder over, but eating protein increases Bilophila levels.

Post Edited (Georgia Hunter) : 6/17/2016 5:06:03 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/17/2016 1:38 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for the great information.
Flagyl seems to work great for a lot of Lymies.

The problem I have with it is that it can't mix with alcohol at all.
A lot of people around here seem to be on some sort of herbal protocol, often with tinctures that contain alcohol.
I'm doing herbal and antibiotics, and it's the reason I haven't been able to try Flagyl or Tindamax yet.
Posted 6/17/2016 2:02 PM (GMT 0)
GH, Thanks for the information!

Unless I am wrong a person needs some Bilophila to digest meat?

This is interesting as far as the herxing aspect goes. As Lymies if we have an abundance of this bacteria that isn't needed it will cause us problems. I am speculating because I am not knowledgable on this subject. Thinking out loud so to speak!!!

In the past year before I knew I had Lyme, I had to take a lot of antibiotics (one of them metronidazole) for diverticulits (which may been aggravated by an excess of Bilophila). I would be so very sick for a good three weeks. I blamed it on the diverticulitis but now I wonder if it wasn't herx in addition to the DV making me sick.

This is an interesting topic, any one else experience severe herx from this?

Any ideas on how to keep it at a normal level without abx?
Posted 6/17/2016 2:32 PM (GMT 0)
The amount of alcohol ingested by most using nothing other than tinctures is still minimal and should not be a problem unless the person is allergic to the specific type of alcohol used.

GH - do you realize that the new recommendations that are coming out is that as we age, we actually need to be sure that we get enough protein? My daughter works at a Medical University, in geriatric medicine - the side that looks to improve elders health and quality of life. They have been watching and doing their own studies (she's a Research co-ordinator) and she has shared some of the information that they have learned with me - and one of those things is the need for more protein. It shouldn't be all animal protein, but to assume we only need protein a few times a week is opposite of what the newest research is saying.

I also don't see how anyone could or should assume that we have yet another bacteria that is causing troubles. This bacteria is found in those who have ruptured and abscessed appendicitis and things like that. Having nearly had my appendix rupture, believe me, that kind of pain gets people to an ER quickly. So just what am I missing that you have read showing some evidence that this should be a real concern? If we aren't careful, we can draw lines to many different conditions that we "obviously" have - just like the doctors have always done.... and given us misdiagnosis.
Posted 6/17/2016 2:51 PM (GMT 0)
Traveler, I have to disagree with you.

I've read a lot of stories online of people having terrible allergic reactions to Flagyl and Tindamax while taking alcohol tinctures. There's something about these drugs that does not mix with any amount of alcohol.

You have to remember too that if you're doing something like Buhner, taking 6-8 herbs, lets say at 1/2 tsp each, that's 3-4 tsp of herbs in 60% alcohol 3x daily.

That would be like taking 4.5-6 tsp of vodka at 40% alcohol. That's about 1.5 to 2 shots, 3x a day.
Fairly significant.
Posted 6/17/2016 2:58 PM (GMT 0)
Now that I've reread your post, I see that you were referring specifically to Flagyl. Having not ever taken that drug, there's no way I could argue with you, even if I wanted to, Mustard seed. All I know is that many don't have an issue with taking abx and tinctures. I don't have the experience or the deep knowledge to know all there is to know about each abx. :-) For most all other abx, taking tinctures should be okay from what I've seen.

Of course the other option is that person could easily switch to herb capsules during their treatment with Flagyl and any other abx that they have issues with.
Posted 6/17/2016 3:02 PM (GMT 0)
Yup, only Flagyl and Tindamax seem to have problems with alcohol. No other antibiotics that I'm aware of.

Yup, switch to pill, or even better, powders. Much cheaper.
Posted 6/17/2016 3:10 PM (GMT 0)
I definitely agree with powders being cheaper! I use the whole/cut herbs most of the time as they are cheaper yet! I grind or crush the whole herbs and then capsulize them when needed.
Posted 6/18/2016 2:04 AM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...

GH - do you realize that the new recommendations that are coming out is that as we age, we actually need to be sure that we get enough protein? My daughter works at a Medical University, in geriatric medicine - the side that looks to improve elders health and quality of life. They have been watching and doing their own studies (she's a Research co-ordinator) and she has shared some of the information that they have learned with me - and one of those things is the need for more protein. It shouldn't be all animal protein, but to assume we only need protein a few times a week is opposite of what the newest research is saying.

I also don't see how anyone could or should assume that we have yet another bacteria that is causing troubles. This bacteria is found in those who have ruptured and abscessed appendicitis and things like that. Having nearly had my appendix rupture, believe me, that kind of pain gets people to an ER quickly. So just what am I missing that you have read showing some evidence that this should be a real concern? If we aren't careful, we can draw lines to many different conditions that we "obviously" have - just like the doctors have always done.... and given us misdiagnosis.


I'm not going to address your alcohol and tincture comments. As for protein intake, every individual has an optimal amount the he/she needs to be as healthy as possible. Many variables determine how much that amount will be. I was not writing about geriatric protein intake, I was writing about protein intake in people who are sick with vector borne diseases like Lyme and Babesiosis. I am not just making this stuff up as I go along. I research scientific literature and then test those ideas and information on myself and give advice to others when they ask. I have gained practical knowledge of the subject through testing and research. I provide references to almost everything I discuss on this forum and would love to read your references of what the "newest" research is saying. Please provide a few links so we can read what you have read.

As for Bilophila, you should not assume you have it, you do have it. Everyone has it. Like mentioned above, it is considered normal flora and helps with nitrate and sulfur digestion. But when we use antibiotics, it proliferates. Dysbiosis can occur because the antibiotics kill many of the susceptible bacteria and leave Bilophila to thrive, especially in a nitrate rich environment which protein provides. What do we Lymmies have a problem with? Bilophila produces ammonia as a cellular by product and it is absorbed systemically through our portal vein. As much as 40g per day has been absorbed according to the research. Don't discount what I have to say just because you haven't seen or heard of what I am saying. I post on this forum to educate and incite others to read and learn things they may not have ever seen or heard before.

I would never say I know treating Lyme or its co-infections better than you do. I will never know as much because it's not where I utilize my time and effort. But when it comes to "How" pathogens cause disease and "Why" our body responds like it does, a chess analogy comes to mind and I'm playing two moves ahead of everyone. That is not meant as a slight on you in any way. My thought processes are different than just about everyone else. I'd love to discuss your daughter's work and I might learn something. She might learn something as well.

The growth environment mentioned in this link is a diet rich in animal protein.
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1075996495803793

www.afrh.fr/web-content/documents/Basedocumentairemedicale/1997/1997%20B.Wadsworthia%20Bacteria%20HS%20Baron.pdf

jcm.asm.org/content/30/7/1882.full.pdf

Animal protein contains animal fats no matter how lean the meat. I am not anti-meat, I'm far from it. I'm just telling you what this and my research have shown. Once you get well, eat all the meat you want but just know that it comes at a price. That price is a weakened immune response.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22722865

I could go into the oxidation of hydrogen mentioned in this article and how pH would play a role.
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10482-007-9215-x

I could go on and on but questioning my research is not something I take lightly. I provide facts. Consider me offended.

Post Edited (Georgia Hunter) : 6/18/2016 7:09:01 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/18/2016 3:29 AM (GMT 0)
Why does Bilophila proliferate when we take antibiotics, but Flagyl 100% eliminates it?
Posted 6/18/2016 8:56 AM (GMT 0)

Mustard Seed said...
Why does Bilophila proliferate when we take antibiotics, but Flagyl 100% eliminates it?

Most antibiotics kill the other bacteria in the GI tract at a higher rate than they kill Bilophila. Bilophila is a very slow growing bacteria and can withstand most antibiotics. When the other bacteria die off, Bilophila is still there and begin increasing in numbers because there is less competition and we provide it the nutrients it needs to survive.

Even after metronidazole use, Bilophila is so common (dogs, chickens, pigs, etc have it) that we are often reintroduced to it and it colonizes our GI tract again. It's not necessarily a bad bacteria to have, it just doesn't need to be in high numbers like it can get. There are other gram negative anaerobes in our GI tract that do the exact same thing and they contribute to our overall well being. Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing if ammonia is involved.

Hypothetically, Borrelia may take up so much of our immune response that it allows these bacteria to proliferate beyond their normal levels. This contributes to our poor health as our immune response just can't handle everything. Borrelia would most likely be seen by our immune system as a greater threat.
Posted 6/18/2016 4:28 PM (GMT 0)

Georgia Hunter said...

I'm not going to address your alcohol and tincture comments.

That comment was not addressed to you necessarily, GH, but I do appreciate you clarifying that you are not addressing it.

Georgia Hunter said...

As for protein intake, every individual has an optimal amount the he/she needs to be as healthy as possible. Many variables determine how much that amount will be. I was not writing about geriatric protein intake, I was writing about protein intake in people who are sick with vector borne diseases like Lyme and Babesiosis.

Those that are chronically ill have a lot in common with geriatric issues.

Georgia Hunter said...
I am not just making this stuff up as I go along. I research scientific literature and then test those ideas and information on myself and give advice to others when they ask. I have gained practical knowledge of the subject through testing and research.



I do realize that you do this, just as I and many others go through the same process - but it doesn't mean that none of us can get something wrong. That's why I like this forum, we can post what we have learned and discover if it is something unique to our situation (like my healing so "quickly" after being infected for so long) or if we are out on a limb, or if it's something that really does apply to most people.

Georgia Hunter said...
I provide references to almost everything I discuss on this forum and would love to read your references of what the "newest" research is saying.

Just as I do, gotta love those links!!

Georgia Hunter said...
Please provide a few links so we can read what you have read.

As I said in my earlier post: "My daughter works at a Medical University, in geriatric medicine - the side that looks to improve elders health and quality of life. They have been watching and doing their own studies (she's a Research co-ordinator) and she has shared some of the information that they have learned with me." This is not something I've read, but new research that has yet to be published, that my daughter shared with me because she was concerned that I may not be getting enough protein.

Georgia Hunter said...
As for Bilophila, you should not assume you have it, you do have it. Everyone has it.

Forgive me, I assume (wrongly) that I didn't have to mention that although it's something that normally occurs in our body, what I was referring to (as well as you) was an overgrowth of this particular bacteria, which is the definition of SIBO - something that some Lyme patients must deal with from time to time.

Georgia Hunter said...
Like mentioned above, it is considered normal flora and helps with nitrate and sulfur digestion. But when we use antibiotics, it proliferates. Dysbiosis can occur because the antibiotics kill many of the susceptible bacteria and leave Bilophila to thrive, especially in a nitrate rich environment which protein provides. What do we Lymmies have a problem with? Bilophila produces ammonia as a cellular by product and it is absorbed systemically through our portal vein. As much as 40g per day has been absorbed according to the research. Don't discount what I have to say just because you haven't seen or heard of what I am saying. I post on this forum to educate and incite others to read and learn things they may not have ever seen or heard before.

Georgia Hunter said...
I would never say I know treating Lyme or its co-infections better than you do.

- I singled this comment out because I wished to say, that I am not an expert by any means. Just someone that is still trying to understand more and more of the research coming out and reaching out to others to share. Seems we are trying to do the same things, that's why I ask questions.

Georgia Hunter said...
I will never know as much because it's not where I utilize my time and effort. But when it comes to "How" pathogens cause disease and "Why" our body responds like it does, a chess analogy comes to mind and I'm playing two moves ahead of everyone. That is not meant as a slight on you in any way. My thought processes are different than just about everyone else. I'd love to discuss your daughter's work and I might learn something. She might learn something as well.

The growth environment mentioned in this link is a diet rich in animal protein.
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1075996495803793

www.afrh.fr/web-content/documents/Basedocumentairemedicale/1997/1997%20B.Wadsworthia%20Bacteria%20HS%20Baron.pdf

jcm.asm.org/content/30/7/1882.full.pdf

Animal protein contains animal fats no matter how lean the meat. I am not anti-meat, I'm far from it. I'm just telling you what this and my research have shown. Once you get well, eat all the meat you want but just know that it comes at a price. That price is a weakened immune response.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22722865

I could go into the oxidation of hydrogen mentioned in this article and how pH would play a role.
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10482-007-9215-x

I could go on and on but questioning my research is not something I take lightly. I provide facts. Consider me offended.

Well, offending you was not my intention, only asking questions as to why you took it in that direction. Consider this an apology, but please do not expect me to try to stop learning or asking questions. That's why we are all here.
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