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Posted 6/26/2016 8:28 PM (GMT 0)
So started Planequil a few weeks ago then a week later Levaquin. Got the tendon issues so stopped Levaquin 12 days in last pill was this past Thursday. So it's Sunday my 3rd day not taking Levaquin and I'm getting weakness in my upper arm muscles bicep/tricep area. I mean that was quick! Wondering is this babs, bart or lyme rearing its ugly head. Note I had this muscle weakness come on quickly as well after I stopped Rifampin/Doxy for 10 days before switching to Planequil/Levaquin.

Would lyme come out so quickly given its long reproductive lifecycle? Could it be babesia even though I'm still on an anti-malarial or is this bartonella given its short reproductive lifecycle and now that I'm not on anything but an anti-malarial? Just seems quick to get symptoms no less than 72 hours after stopping Levaquin. Thanks for any thoughts.
Posted 6/26/2016 8:33 PM (GMT 0)
It's really difficult to determine.

Even though lyme has a long life-cycle - you can still get symptoms after stopping meds - the treatment could be holding the infection at bay...might not have irradicated all of it...so when your antibiotics are stopped, you get symptoms reappearing.

Or...perhaps it is bartonella. What is the life cycle - 3-4 days?

It is possible it's a herx even though you stopped the levaquin days ago... you're still taking the plaquenil, right?
Posted 6/26/2016 8:47 PM (GMT 0)
Bartonella and Babesia I believe have very similar lifecycles was never able to get definitive information here but I believe they are anywhere from 3-7 days.

I don't think this is a herx its too coincidental that for the second time since stopping antibiotics this muscle weakness has come roaring back fairly quickly. The first time I wasn't on an anti-malarial the second time I am (yes still taking Planequil). Maybe that rules out Babesia since it happened both times.

I agree with you I think the treatment is holding the infection at bay its not resolving it. This has been my problem since day 1 and it's a bit discouraging because if I haven't been able to eradicate even one of the 3 known infections I have in over 18 months what's to say anything is going to?
Posted 6/26/2016 8:55 PM (GMT 0)
The other thing - is it possible it's tendon pain?

I have read that even after the fluoroquinolone are stopped, you can get tendon issues.


Rikky1 - are any of your symptoms resolved and not returning? Or...somewhat better?

Are they all just as bad as they were before treatment?
Posted 6/26/2016 8:57 PM (GMT 0)
The thing about cycles....

I believe the misconception is every single lyme bacteria is on the same cycle. The cycle is every 3 to 4 weeks however it doesn't mean every single bacteria cell is on the same lifecycle. As some go and hide in our muscle, tissues and joints, others are in the blood stream making babies and vice versa.
Posted 6/26/2016 9:04 PM (GMT 0)
I really think recovering is more about figuring out why is your body to weak to fight off this or other bugs and less about a specific bug.
Posted 6/26/2016 9:15 PM (GMT 0)
Girlie,

Almost positive its not tendon pain as I've had this sneaking up on me for months before ever taking Cipro and Levaquin its a fairly new symptom that I didn't have the first year of treatment. Also my tendon pain in my calves resolved fairly quickly in the last 3 days since stopping Levaquin.

Since beginning of infection I'm definitely better in terms of my head inflammation but the chest 'thumping' and now muscle weakness popped up about 6-7 months ago. So I traded a really bad symptom for others while still having the bad symptom just not as bad.

Dacarte3 completely agree not every bug has the same lifecycle just makes it more difficult for us to treat!

Magoo I agree and do everything I can to boost my immune system but it sure seems right now I have too many bugs throughout my system for my immune system to handle whether that means keeping up with trying to eradicate them or they are hiding from it.

I need to figure out what bug is causing what because I definitely have 3 of them and want to go after the ones that are most debilitating. I can go after all 3 but that's hard long term as you need an anti-malarial and 2 more antibiotics that go after lyme and babs. The planequil, levaquin, doxy was a good combination but alas I had to stop the leavquin. Already took rifampin for 4 months so prob won't go back to that next round. I did read Biaxin and Bactrim is another good combo for Bart which would also hit Babesia and Lyme.

My LLMD appt is tomorrow so we'll see what he says.
Posted 6/26/2016 9:29 PM (GMT 0)

magoo2 said...
I really think recovering is more about figuring out why is your body to weak to fight off this or other bugs and less about a specific bug.

I think that is understood by most lymies in this forum. Immune suppression, bacterial resistance (if using abx only), vitamin deficiencies, gut health (where most of the immune system lives), etc. And its lyme causing these reasons. So it's a holistic approach. If you don't actually kill the bugs as well, then trying to fix everything else is trying to fill in holes with one finger in a sinking boat with 20 holes.

So I think most of know why "our bodies are too weak". You really do have to address both fronts at the same time.
Posted 6/26/2016 10:40 PM (GMT 0)
I'm big into working on the strengthen my system side and less on the kill the bug side. That doesn't mean think I haven't taken plenty of antibiotics but really got no better until I did everything I could to strengthen my body.
Remember people with normal functioning body systems cure this with a couple weeks of antibiotics at most.
best of work
Posted 6/26/2016 10:56 PM (GMT 0)
Rikky1-what are you taking to boost your immune system?
Posted 6/26/2016 11:17 PM (GMT 0)

magoo2 said...
I'm big into working on the strengthen my system side and less on the kill the bug side. That doesn't mean think I haven't taken plenty of antibiotics but really got no better until I did everything I could to strengthen my body.
Remember people with normal functioning body systems cure this with a couple weeks of antibiotics at most.
best of work

That's because abx has significant limitations and it suppresses the immune system further. So if you are talking about abx then you are correct. However there are other antimicrobials that are not abx.

"Remember people with normal functioning body systems cure this with a couple weeks of antibiotics at most.
best of work"

But lyme causes a NON-normal functioning body. What universe are we speaking of where someone with a lyme infection has a "normal functioning body"?

Getting the body to function "normally" again is highly difficult if the bacteria load is very heavy. Killing HAS to be a part of the equation. Just illogical for it not to be. However I believe it's not the most significant part. Where you and I may agree that restoring immune health, vitamin deficiencies and disrupting the bacteria's survival actions is even more significant.

It's why comprehensive herbal protocols have diverse array of herbs for different purposes (outside of just killing).
Posted 6/26/2016 11:18 PM (GMT 0)
It can be really difficult to decipher what's going on sometimes.

For instance: I am taking Artemisinin for Babesia (prior to this had been on Cryptolepis for a few months, and then CSA for another month or so)

My first herx was middle of the night - shivers - woke me up - i was crying...very emotional.

Since then, I have had an increase in nerve pain - generalized - not specific area. So, not sure why - that's not a usual Babesia symptom.
Posted 6/26/2016 11:59 PM (GMT 0)
decarte3- there are some docs that treat lyme without every killing bacteria load-directly.
You have lyme because your body wasn't functioning well-finding out what the reason or reasons are
for this is the key to getting well.
best of luck in your journey
Posted 6/27/2016 12:09 AM (GMT 0)

magoo2 said...
decarte3- there are some docs that treat lyme without every killing bacteria load-directly.
You have lyme because your body wasn't functioning well-finding out what the reason or reasons are
for this is the key to getting well.
best of luck in your journey

That's an over-simplification to say the least. The most healthy, physically fit, never get sick people have gotten lyme and had to treat for an extended period of time. Professional athletes have gotten lyme.

That's no different than telling people they get malaria or the Zika virus, because "your body wasn't functioning well". Uh no, they got bit by a mosquito that freaking had malaria and zika.

Or, guess what, you got HIV because "your body wasn't functioning well". It's over simplification non-sense.

People aren't robots or super heroes. Very healthy, young people, get infections too.
Posted 6/27/2016 12:24 AM (GMT 0)
When I told a ND that I rarely got sick - my whole life - prior to lyme...she said that wasn't a good thing.
That meant that my immune system wasn't functioning properly to mount a response.

I'm not sure I accept that. If that's true, then the flu and cold bugs are just in my system - not causing me any symptoms? How does that work?

If I did get sick - I would be over it in a day...where some people would take several days...so I don't think that's a valid statement.


Sorry, I digress.
Posted 6/27/2016 12:28 AM (GMT 0)
There are some very valid points being made. I have found that defining healthy can be "tricky." There are degrees of healthy. Looking at someone who looks fit doesn't necessarily mean they are healthy. And how do we correlate that to their immune system? There are degrees of immune system functioning. You cannot tell who is going to be really sick from a viral or bacterial load vs. the person who will only experience little symptoms or no symptoms. I agree that a large part of getting well is enhancing/stimulating the immune function. You simply cannot get well and stay well without a properly functioning immune system. And the other large part is yes, getting those viral and bacteria loads down.
Posted 6/27/2016 12:33 AM (GMT 0)
Yes the but very flimsy correlation that a peak optimal immune system means you don't get infections.

That would be saying if you took somebody with peak optimal immune system (that was scientifically defined and measured) and then injected them with Lyme, Malaria or HIV, that some how they would be super human and not get infected. Or recovery very quickly, I think magoo said 2 weeks?

That connection is just not factual.

Post Edited (dacarte3) : 6/26/2016 6:36:14 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/27/2016 12:43 AM (GMT 0)
dacarte3- Anyone is at risk for getting sick at any time in their lives. No we are not super human to any degree. I just know that we are all going to process these sicknesses differently which could equate to how quickly you get well, how sick you actually get, etc.
Posted 6/27/2016 12:49 AM (GMT 0)
To think that your immune systems were great then a tick with bad bacteria bite you and
you got chronically sick isn't right.

The athlete example makes no sense-muscle is not health.
Treat yourself however you think you should-you are in charge of you and if its working
keep dong it. If you get stuck consider what things may have worn down your system in the first
place. Most issues come on slow usually hard to point to one single day.
Likely issues-gut-detox-metal-parasite and dental but the list can be way longer. Fixing any and all of this list help immune system.
Hey if what you do is working best of luck-but the cause is more than bad bacteria
Posted 6/27/2016 12:54 AM (GMT 0)
"To think that your immune systems were great then a tick with bad bacteria bite you and
you got chronically sick isn't right."

See this is human arrogance. It's just "dumb, unsophisticated" bacteria. Yea the same bacteria that has infected and caused illness in animals since the beginning of time.
Posted 6/27/2016 1:00 AM (GMT 0)
"Hey if what you do is working best of luck-but the cause is more than bad bacteria"

No one is denying this. I actually agreed multiple times with you on this part of it.

But it was the over-simplification. Because then using your premise, everyone that has ever gotten a illness that took a extended period of time to treat had a less than optimal immune system and that is THE reason why they got ill.

I mean that's just false on so many levels.
Posted 6/27/2016 1:05 AM (GMT 0)

magoo2 said...
To think that your immune systems were great then a tick with bad bacteria bite you and
you got chronically sick isn't right.

The athlete example makes no sense-muscle is not health.


I do believe you can have a good immune system and get bit by a tick and get chronically sick.
i think even healthy people also do get sick from a tick bite.


But, if you're saying a person with a healthy immune system doesn't get sick from a tick bite, then they're also not getting sick with the common flu bug.
Which is contradicting what the ND told me...said my immune system isn't functioning if I never got sick.

Professional athletes don't usually just have muscle - they are often on rigorous training regimens, have excellent cardiovascular health....
Posted 6/27/2016 1:12 AM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...

magoo2 said...
To think that your immune systems were great then a tick with bad bacteria bite you and
you got chronically sick isn't right.

The athlete example makes no sense-muscle is not health.


I
Professional athletes don't usually just have muscle - they are often on rigorous training regimens, have excellent cardiovascular health....

Thank you girlie, that was the point I was trying to make. If anyone is going to have this magical super human definition of an "optimal" immune system it would be a pro-athlete when compared to the average joe. Didn't think I had to explain that one.
Posted 6/27/2016 1:19 AM (GMT 0)
Sorry that we (I mostly) hi-jacked Rikky's post. It was just highly annoying that someone drops in and pretty much disregards the different methods that have been proven to work and says "hey lyme suffers, so I figured this whole thing out, just boost your immune system and that's it and you're good to go. Boom done. You're welcome I just cured everyone".
Posted 6/27/2016 1:24 AM (GMT 0)
cardio and muscle do not equal healthy nor unhealthy.

Work on killing the bug or bugs -if that is working that is what I would do. If you have tried that for years and get stuck consider working on making your body systems stronger-best of luck.

FYI-many people get bite by lyme tick and never get any symptoms at all-there body just deals with it and I have very little in life figured out. I know what has helped me get to this point, Many people do not get well by killing the bugs with abx or natural-I was one of those people.

Post Edited (magoo2) : 6/26/2016 7:47:23 PM (GMT-6)

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