success with Buhner without andrographis?

I tend to get hives quite easily and am very hesistant to use andrographis, not to mention the dr appts and other herbs I have bought are draining my bank account....has anyone had "success" w/ buhners protocol without andrographis? Or is there an alternative i should add in addition to JK, CC and eleuthro? (i ordered pinella based on recommendations from the board for my brain fog)

I have been looking in his book for an alternative herbal to use in its place but the brain fog makes it difficult (plus the darn font is so small! ) Any input would be appreciated!

dbwilco,

I just went to the Buhner website and there were several questions about Andrographis. He said a few times that it is not necessary. Here is an answer that he gave to someone that did react to this herb.

"Andrographis is the one herb in the protocol that can cause side effects that can be uncomfortable. I would suggest starting with Japanese knotweed, then cat’s claw, then eleutherococcus, and only then adding in the andrographis.

The knotweed will act to reduce the inflammation in the nervous system and that should help your nervous system deal with the andrographis. Still, it may be that you are one of the few for whom the herb does not work well, your approach will let you know this as you go on. The other herbs in the protocol will act to reduce the lyme symptoms considerably or even totally, even without the andrographis."

Another thing that he said in direct reply to a question about andrographis is that we need to restore collagen with collagen support.

I sympathize with you with the small print thing! It makes it so hard to read. If that is a Lyme symptom for you I have found that Stephania and burberry have helped me a lot.

Also I know that going this route is expensive. I have been tincturing my own herbs. It is so easy and something you might look into.

Best wishes for better health!

Yes flexibility is key. You will have to find what works for you. Don't get frustrated if an herb doesn't agree with you. There are always alternatives.

1000Daisies said...
Yes, I can see that. However, I find it very misleading that it's generally referred to as Buhner's site. But it really is a site based on Buhner's protocol, and it's not considered up to date by some (is it even maintained well? has it been updated to reflect his new book?).
I just feel that this should be distinguished when referring to his site - to avoid confusion!
I know when I first started here, it wasn't clear to me, and I personally found it very misleading.

I'm not against the site, and I'm sorry if I come off like that. I just feel the distinction is important. :)

For what it is worth (and not much since the last of my brain cells are apparatly on fire sale?) I find the site the exact same. Most info over 3-4 years ago. And now in process of trying to sort out what I need to do about Andrographis myself. I just quadrupled my dose today and will soon know a lot more I'm afraid?

Anyone know of a good alternative drug, please post it? Of course, I may not need one? I want to try every single option as fast as possible to see if I have ANY chance to ever walk again... I am currently, as of today on 100% of ALL of the protocol of Andrographis, Cats Claw, Japanese Knotweed, Eleuthero. So guess that means I am doing the big 3 plus one? Plus taking lots of supplements including milk thistle, asst vitamins and probiotics.

That said, I wanna darned beer.....

Thank you,
Didn't I mention I already take those though? I mean the Japanese knotweed, CC and such? Anyway, I need to find something good for collagen support too I think, any ideas? Lastly, is there some type of testing for these coinfections I should ask for? If so, these herbs will hide them I suppose?

Girlie said...
Mike - Those are herbs for lyme mainly, and some are good for support.
(eg. Eleutheros is good for adrenals)
In time, you will want to treat for whatever co-infections you think you have.

So, you could add in some bartonella herbs for example. Japanese knotweed is one that is also good for Bartonella, along with sida acuta, and houttuynia - a couple more.

Then later - maybe herbs for Babesia if you think you might have it.

A couple of support herbs you might be interested in:

Hawthorne - for heart and blood vessels (and more)
Red Root - for the Lymph system

Regarding testing for the co-infections.

The testing for those are even more unreliable/inaccurate than the testing for Lyme.

Some LL Dr.'s do test for them, others don't.

Many LL Dr.'s clinical diagnose - based on response or lack of response to treatments.
If you are stalled out on Lyme treatment...then perhaps it's a co-infection that is impeding progress.

If you try a particular antibiotic or herb that is specific for treating a co-infection and you herx...then it's indicative that you have that co-infection.

Mike - can you post what your full doses are?

you've only been on full doses for a few days now? (CC, JK)



I would stay on that dose for a few weeks,(once you get the Andrographis at full dose) and then if no response - good or bad (herx) then try upping up the JK - not a lot, just maybe a couple drops. See how you fare...if no response, a couple more drops.

Buhner's 'old' protocol (website) says for JK - 1/4-1 tsp 3-6 X daily.

So a total of 6 tsp. I'm not sure if I would spread it out to 6x daily... though, but increase your 3X daily doses.

PS- I just opened my Month #2 box of all tinctures to begin using soon. But at THESE new current doses of 4 droppers full each dose to get a teaspoon? I have GOT to place an order in the next week or so for all 4 herbs in powder form. Valerie there says she can do that for me. Says it will save me $$$. I cant WAIT to enjoy that oh so magical flavor of andrographis RAW.

Nah I gotta be ME

No, the sleep WAS not good but wonderful news. The worry was, then why am I, out of the blue, SO dizzy it is like vertigo almost. Not real clear headed in the thinking department either. New Medicare supplemental insurance paperwork just arrived today explaining changes and cost changes for doctors, meds etc. Confuse the crap out of me.

The CLEAR as a bell part was the bill for $15,115.00 for CT Mylogram from August when they suspected a brain tumor. None found, Did entire spine and looking for MS etc but no active lesions etc. Anyway. My worry was why SO dizzy today unless from herbs. But doubt herbs can do that?

lucynethel (OR Just Mike) said...
Nah I gotta be ME

No, the sleep WAS not good but wonderful news. The worry was, then why am I, out of the blue, SO dizzy it is like vertigo almost. Not real clear headed in the thinking department either. New Medicare supplemental insurance paperwork just arrived today explaining changes and cost changes for doctors, meds etc. Confuse the crap out of me.

The CLEAR as a bell part was the bill for $15,115.00 for CT Mylogram from August when they suspected a brain tumor. None found, Did entire spine and looking for MS etc but no active lesions etc. Anyway. My worry was why SO dizzy today unless from herbs. But doubt herbs can do that?

is your dizziness new or worse than before? If so, it could be a herx.

I know what you mean. That was (pre-lyme) my forte - figuring out paperwork...now I get flustered...and my nerves ramp up..and then I feel like lighting a match to it all.

yes it is a cyclical pain...it is the lyme life cycle of my kind of BB. I had this in March....the only difference is that my fatigue is less now. The headache and earache have been my faithful companions since the very beginning of this .....*****g nightmare. Only at that time I thought it was something else. Hormones, migraines....wheather changes... whatever you can think.
I historically suffered from migraines in young life....they went away when I begun running....and came back these past years. But 72 hrs long migraines only with lyme.

artermix said...
I am doing as we speak of Buhner protocol

3 1/8 teaspoon 4 times a day of the following
JK
CC
Uncaria R.
Eulothero

I have not experience a thing...no the usual herx stuff.
I wonder if I am immune to this like I was immune to abx....

All I have is a full flagged headache, earache on left side of my head and behind eye....Occipital or ocular headache. I am also a slightly nauseated today and sweating...maybe hot flashes?

In relationship to this thread...I ordered Andrograpis and hoping it will help.

That is the same reason I began the andrographis myself, plus I "think" it is more "medicinal" than the Eulothero? Either way, I want to feel SOMETHIN. Herk, puke, the runs, ANYTHING....the sweats I have but when it's 100-112 at the beach like this week? Hell, my CAT is sweating.