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Herbs and "liver" pain

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Posted 7/30/2016 11:23 AM (GMT 0)
So I've been taking Dan Shen and ashwagandha as well as sarsaparilla and chlorella at the request of my doc. No problem. Added in cats claw and felt fine for about two weeks before getting pains all over. After about a week they started isolating to my right abdomen. So I'm not sure if this is just a herx in my intestine (I've had some) or a liver problem but I'm a tad concerned. My LLMD is saying to find a doc near me to get checked out. It's Saturday and I'm wondering if this is something urgent care could be helpful for? Or if I should schedule with a primary for Monday?

Also how do you all deal with keeping up with your liver? The idea of waiting a month between tests while I'm playing around with a dynamic protocol just seems like a recipe for disaster. My doc didn't respond to my request for every two weeks though. It's just hard for me to move forward in confidence when I don't know if something I'm doing is going to kill me. Ahhhh so fed up with this disease and the doctors
Posted 7/30/2016 11:53 AM (GMT 0)
Sorry about this - I can see why you're frustrated.

Whenever I feel pain or pangs in my organs, I assume stuff is backed up and I increase detoxing, water intake and dry brushing to get blood moving. I'm also taking milk thistle seed and burdock root, red root, parsley and Japanese knotweed which help with processing things through these organs.

In your case, you are doing good things but maybe you could do a little more flushing.

Maybe you have a sensitivity to something you're taking? You could stop taking one thing at a time to investigate.

But you might benefit from a trip to urgent care so they can rule out any emergency. They won't understand any components of your protocol (sometimes it's more helpful to say less) but it might offer peace of mind and they might be able to mitigate pain temporarily (but will grill you to make sure you're not an addict).

Good luck - let us know how things are going.

-p

Post Edited (Pirouette) : 7/30/2016 5:56:48 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/30/2016 12:45 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah, I'm more interested just so i can know if what i'm doing is affecting my liver or if it's just die off/cramping in my intestines. I've already started feeling better since stopping though some pain is still there. I feel like everything i've been taking is rather innocuous so it's kind of depressing i'm already having potential problems. In any case, i think i might go with urgent care so i can get blood work before any more healing occurs.

Also, i've tried backing off these herbs one at a time and I just can't figure it out. It's the weirdest thing. It only happened after I added the cats claw, so I eliminated the cats claw, took the rest and immediately liver pains again... So i took a different one at different times, nothing. It's like something about the combination. I've had a similar thing happen before though without liver involvement. I left some things out. But from the last time and this time it seems to be something in the eleuthero, ashwagandha, cats claw, smilax, and chlorella mix. For some reason I'm skeptical of the smilax. Perhaps I'm herxing up a small player? But i get really weird symptoms such as episodes of extreme derealization and headaches. Like i'm just going about my day and someone shot me with a ketamine dart. Not something i normally feel

I'm also taking a lot of milk thistle. I may add red root too. Agh, i want to just believe herbs are harmless and push through but slow and steady wins the race i suppose :P

(also whoever owns this site needs to get rid of those intrusive omnipod adds. for the record it's not working. I still don't know what omnipod is and only actually read the name for the sake of this comment)
Posted 7/30/2016 2:24 PM (GMT 0)
I have known a couple of people that took milk thistle and got liver pain.

I know, doesn't make sense, but when they quit the milk thistle the pain went away. If it were me, I would start with that one.

Good luck. It will be a process of elimination.

And I so dislike that omnipod ad also!!
Posted 7/30/2016 3:02 PM (GMT 0)
Wondering if the pain from the milk thistle is related to the fact that it may be very inflamed and as the milk thistle works it produces pain possibly in the beginning of its use?
Posted 7/30/2016 3:02 PM (GMT 0)
Wow very strange. I've wondered that myself but milk thistle is one of the only universally accepted safe herbs for the liver. Scary. I don't think I was taking it with every dose that caused pain though. Do you know if those people had high enzymes or just pain? I'm wondering if it's more digestive or a sort of die off thing or true damage. Suppose I'll know soon. Sitting in the waiting room now
Posted 7/30/2016 3:04 PM (GMT 0)
Good luck! Let us know how it goes.
Posted 7/30/2016 3:21 PM (GMT 0)
My enzymes were pretty low last time checked. I know that doesn't rule out preexisting inflammation but I certainly doubt my liver was "very inflamed". There is also the possibility of idiosyncratic injury with herbs and drugs which is why I'm kind of paranoid. Basically certain herbs that are normally protective can cause serious damage in a liver with preexisting mild inflammation. Just some sort of weird "perfect storm" issue.

Anyways urgent care was utterly useless, looked at me like I'm weird and told me I needed to go to the ER for a CT. Fat chance I'm getting a CT for something that will go away in a few days without herbs. I swear to god I'm going to have to invest in a home lab for checking my enzymes. This system is ridiculous
Posted 7/30/2016 3:27 PM (GMT 0)
regarding the annoying ads...I too got tired of them and found "adblock for Google Chrome". It blocks all the ads not only here but all sites that you go to. It has made web browsing so much more enjoyable.

As for the herbs, a combination of them could cause issues for some people. Herbs are not benign and should be considered with the same cautions as a prescription medicine.

There are some prescription medicines that have interactions and the same applies to herbs. An example are the blood thinning herbs, some by themselves are great but add too many blood thinning herbs and you get the idea.

I too was getting some weird pains just like what you are experiencing, but mostly in my kidneys. I went to urgent care and they did an MRI and everything came back normal, no inflammation, enlargement or blockage.

So what I did was to take some herbs an hour apart from each other and that alleviated some of my pain. You may want to consider doing that too. I also give my body a break once a week by stopping all medication. This allows my immune system to not "fall asleep" and my lymph nodes time to catch up with any backlogged waste. It is also good on your wallet long term :-)

And because Lyme is a slow replicating bacteria, taking a break won't increase your bacterial load.
Posted 7/30/2016 3:45 PM (GMT 0)
Not a bad idea actually. I could probably achieve a similar therapeutic effect with minimal strain on my organs by spacing them out particularly with tonic herbs. And yeah I agree. I think herbs are safer in a lot of ways. Rather than be protective in one or two indications and toxic to a whole bunch of systems they tend to have a broader range of protection than isolated pharms. But I do think anything is dangerous in the wrong hands and none of us are expert herbalists and need to be careful. Plenty of people have had elevated enzymes from buhners protocol and others. I'm adament about getting regular bloodwork but one month apart is too far for me. One month is about the time frame it takes to find yourself in the ER wondering what happened. Some herbs like knotweed have a much bigger rep for this stuff and the herbs I was taking virtually no indication of liver problems. So I didn't worry about it but I'm certainly holding off now until I can find a local doctor who is accessible and compliant with my needs.
Posted 7/30/2016 4:59 PM (GMT 0)
I'm one of those that has liver pain when taking milk thistle, but that's because I'm quite allergic to a plant in the same family - rag weed. Some can and some can't take milk thistle when they have a rag weed allergy. I use an all natural liver flush instead to help keep my liver working well - plus turmeric, ginger and Yogi Brand detox tea.

And agreeing with Healing on the herbs - that's all I've used to heal from these infections! They are anything but harmless and benign.
Posted 7/30/2016 5:03 PM (GMT 0)
Milk thisle ,silimari . ..my kidneys started to hurt same fashion. Used palo azul
Posted 7/30/2016 5:14 PM (GMT 0)
So for those saying you hurt on milk thistle, more specific recommendations? What is this liver flush? The idea of milk thistle causing liver pain is maddening
Posted 7/30/2016 5:23 PM (GMT 0)
Our wonderful mod, Pirouette, included the liver flush I've had to use in her Yeast/Fungal post on the bottom of page 2 of our "New to Lyme?" thread, but here it is:

In the morning, 1/2 hour before any food, mix:
1 cup fresh squeezed citrus juice - can be orange or grapefruit .
A couple of good squeezes of lemon or lime juice.
1 - 2 cloves of fresh squeezed garlic
1 tablespoon of olive oil.
A few drops of fresh squeezed ginger juice
Do 2 cycles of 7 - 10 days each, with a 3 day break in between the 2 cycles - OR until you see plenty of bile (dark green color) in your stools.


It's just one option to use if you can't use milk thistle.
Posted 7/30/2016 6:38 PM (GMT 0)
Psilociraptor- I did not read all of this, but wanted to add about D-Limonene.

Its a major liver support, one of the only things that work for genetic deficient livers (I have two copies of a "bad" liver gene). Same-E is the other, but changes brain serotonine too (not all need that).

The usual milk thisle does nothing that I can feel, nor did it improve liver labs. When my liver gets toxic, I feel bad and the labs also reflect this. D-Limonene helps it. The Jarrow brand is $10 for 60 1000mg soft gells, might want o order some.
Posted 7/30/2016 8:41 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks guys! I admit j forgot to go back and review the new to Lyme doc, I will get to that this week!
Posted 7/30/2016 8:45 PM (GMT 0)
There's also TUDCA. Bodybuilders use it when they take steroids to protect the liver.
I haven't tried hitting the juice while taking it, but it seems to help with the stresses caused by Lyme treatment.

/www.reddit.com/r/steroids/comments/2cjt0d/why_everyone_who_uses_orals_should_be_taking_tudca/
Posted 7/30/2016 8:58 PM (GMT 0)
Psilocrapter
I can relate to your issues. I have liver allergies to cats claw, ashwagantha and smilex. They make my liver 'blow up'. Milk thistle irritates a stomach ulcer I have developed. It irritates it a lot even a small amount of it. It seemed like their were brick walls everywhere and both my doctor and naturopath had no idea how to help.
I went to a bioressonance practitioner who picked up Coxsacke b as my primary infection. Its a virus that causes ulcers in the gi tract and a kind of hepititus in the liver. I also have mono. These viruses are very easy to pick up.
I have been doing liver detoxes for a while now I think its a very good idea. I am getting good results from taking r-alpha lipoic acid and biotin. I buy them separately from iHerb. I am still allergic to the herbs I want to take. I think herbal remedies are a good idea for me as I have always had a lot of allergies. My goal is to get the liver healthy enough so I am not so reactive to the stronger herbal remedies. Detoxing is part of that. I think reducing the viral load as in doing a viral detox may be what I need to do now. I didnt get much help with viral support. Its a challenge getting some health care professionals to recognise the validity of bioressonance. All the viral herbs I am reacting to. Why am I not surprised! I have put them aside. I havent started yet but I have ordered a strong colloidal silver remedy, garlic oil, bee propolis and I am going to go after the viruses with the Spooky2. I have taken these before and I know I dont react negatively to them. They give me a herx but I kept them up in the past or really had much idea what I was hitting What I am suggesting is that there may be infections that your health care team are missing. It may be your liver needs some support in that direction to reduce your allergies. Like you I am trying to figure it out. I wish I could help more but this is the best I have. All the best.
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