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Should I continue to see LLMD?

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Posted 9/28/2016 5:25 PM (GMT 0)
So I am thinking not to go to see LLMD anymore.
Last visit was a waste of time.

Since I already completely distrust every doctor and figured I am going to die, no matter if I take care of myself or not.
Why should I keep going to see the LLMD? How is he going to help me get better? He does not believe in herbal treatments and I do not want to use abx long term just on a trial error basis.

I am already in peace with myself knowing I am not going to live too long, or not the way I projected and hoped to live my life. The quality is already gone (yes I know many people have it worse than mine). No doctor can do a thing for me for the time being.

Post Edited (artermix) : 9/28/2016 11:28:07 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/28/2016 5:51 PM (GMT 0)
Artermix - I can tell you're feeling despair ...but don't give up.
If you don't want to continue with abx...fine...but please do another treatment. You can do the herbal treatments on your own. And..of course with the help of the forum members.
I have a LLND and he treats with abx...and threw in a few herbals...but I have learned more about the herbals from this forum than him...

I don't agree with "No doctor can do a thing for me for the time being."

You don't know at what point you will start to feel better...it could be tomorrow...or next week...or next month...
Just don't give up.
Posted 9/28/2016 6:04 PM (GMT 0)
Girlie I am treating with herbal medicines. I am even embarrassed to go to LLMD now and tell him I have been treating with that. He told me to stop abx and if I wanted he would help me with more. Well, the data on abx success is very discouraging and I simply do not feel is right for me to tell him how to treat me. The guy knows better he is a professional who helped others to heal. I just do not approve the methodology. I am a difficult patient.

Why would I even continue see him? I do not mean forever but I have not treated long enough in any case.

It scares me to read all the treatment you are doing and how slow is recovery.
And, not to mention all the side effects you are getting from it.....I command you for being that strong to continue. I know you do hybrid treatment too....so you see both side of the medal.
Posted 9/28/2016 6:12 PM (GMT 0)
Well my take on abx treatment is different.

There are many forum members who have gotten well with abx.
...and I personally know people (or people who know people) in my 'neck of the woods'...and I live in a small city in BC, Canada.

You don't have to go to a LLMD...if you choose to do herbals...that is your choice.
Many people don't have LLMD's, and they heal.

Yes, my recovery is slow. But, I have 'lost' a lot of symptoms. I had a very long list...and the worst one lingering is my nervous system symptoms. They may or may not be active infection...maybe nerve damage that needs to heal. I don't know.

I'm not really getting a lot of side effects from the abx. I do sometimes get some acid reflux from certain antibiotics, and when I'm on Rifampin, my pee is orangey color.

So are you grappling with the decision to not see the LLMD?
You can just stop for a few months...and see how it goes.
I haven't had a LLND appt. since before summer. I have enough abx...and don't have anything to see him about.
Posted 9/28/2016 6:12 PM (GMT 0)
Is it me or ist the bugs thinking ...would you treat tb with herbs?...use everythingnin the arsenal. ..if abx buys you 1 day its 1 day the bugs dont eat you
Posted 9/28/2016 6:24 PM (GMT 0)

artermix said...
Girlie I am treating with herbal medicines. I am even embarrassed to go to LLMD now and tell him I have been treating with that. He told me to stop abx and if I wanted he would help me with more. Well, the data on abx success is very discouraging and I simply do not feel is right for me to tell him how to treat me. The guy knows better he is a professional who helped others to heal. I just do not approve the methodology. I am a difficult patient.

Why would I even continue see him? I do not mean forever but I have not treated long enough in any case.

It scares me to read all the treatment you are doing and how slow is recovery.
And, not to mention all the side effects you are getting from it.....I command you for being that strong to continue. I know you do hybrid treatment too....so you see both side of the medal.


God how I wish I could tell you how much I feel like you and that I expect it will get better. But I only just finished my first ever treatment of 28 days of oral antibiotics and also am beginning month #2 of over the counter Stephen Buhner Protocol. And I do not feel ANY different than the first day I began. STILL can't walk and to be honest my legs are now even more weak so scared to death...But a week ago I had a meltdown and if my wife had not been home on vacation, I would have committed suicide. I could NOT stop myself and if you knew me you would know I NEVER had a single thought like this before. So what I read that YOU are saying scares me since I hear myself in your words. Or at least I think I do?

I have NO idea what is right for you to do, or even myself. But at my wife's begging me, I called my family doctor and admitted I was ready to actually end my life after 9 months of the run around and being misdiagnosed with everything from ALS, MS to Agent Orange damaged and who knows what....then told I had tested positive but to not worry about it OR even try to treat it? So my family doctor not only understood my frustration but was amazed I hadn't cracked a long time ago and prescribed an antidepressant. OK and I HATE them, swore I would never take one. But here I was and I took them and it 100% STOPPED those thoughts. I guess I am worried about what I think I hear YOU saying? If I am correct, maybe ask for a trial and if the medication helps put your mind at peace a bit like it has for me, at least we can BOTH sit around and wait to die together? :-)

I am just as frustrated as you and now unable to stand much less walk, I am PISSED off. But this antidepressant (and I DO hate them and they are a ***** to quit as I understand?) are better for me than the immediate alternative. Besides, my wife hasn't got enough money for a new URN right now cuz I spent it on herbs....HANG in there! Just take a breath and hand IN there.
Posted 9/28/2016 6:55 PM (GMT 0)
Yes....I am not going to see him Girlie. You down play many side effects because you are strong and can handle it. I cannot.

bluelyme I really rather to be dead than live a life trying to sort out side effect of a medicine that is keeping me alive. You cannot go against destiny.

Lucynethel....my views on life and death might be different and darker. I do not think it takes much despair or being all the way under the bus for some people. Just understanding that prolonging life with suffering is not feasible for some humans and it is perfectly OK.
What is not ok is people trying to convince people that is not acceptable, but that is a different issue and I really do not want to go there.

That said my question was about why should I see my LLMD if it is not use to me at least now?
And so Girlie gave me insight that some people really do not use LLMD.
I know people who got better from 30 days of abx from general practitioner.....hmmm rare but true.
Posted 9/28/2016 7:00 PM (GMT 0)
Well then, Party On...
Posted 9/28/2016 7:40 PM (GMT 0)
Personally I don't think you should see your LLMD anymore especially if you think they can't help. If you expect negative, that's what you are going to get. Plus as Girlie stated, you don't need them for herbs. I would recommend though that you at least keep them around if you need to order tests.

You are so right that this such a long freakin road to healing. But you also have to remember that we are layers and layers of cells, muscles, etc. Unfortunately, we are like onions. We have to heal layer by layer by layer.

I don't know if you are a spiritual person, but if you are, please pray about this. If you aren't, then think about or focus on whatever gives you the strength to power on.

Artermix, I believe you are stronger than you think but right now you are in a real funky place. I encourage you to go back and read some of your other postings. You sound optimistic in quite a number of them. Find that person and tap into them.

Blessings and prayers upon you my friend!
Posted 9/28/2016 8:15 PM (GMT 0)
Arterimix I think you should see someone else because most Lyme doctors even the best of the best will use herbals and antibiotics together. Even Dr. H in new york switches people completely to herbals at times.
Posted 9/28/2016 8:30 PM (GMT 0)
Arterimix I healed/remission on herbs. At first I was so scared and thought the antibiotics were the answer, but they did absolutely nothing for me in 28 days and I fired the antibiotics. I also fired that llmd. I found another llmd and he only was trained minimally in lyme because he and his wife got lyme. He cured his quickly with antibiotics but his wife had a reaction and had to take herbs. So my llmd learned about Beyond Balance herbs.

Herbs started working for me but very subtle.

I also found that when I asked this new llmd questions he went to the phone and called the Beyond Balance company.... that left me feeling insecure about his training.

So I bought all of Buhner's books, joined this forum and went on my own. I continued the Beyond Balance herbs and added in the Buhner herbs.

I had no symptoms as of March 2016. I quit all my herbs June 27th 2016. I am here and doing great. I went for a bike ride yesterday, swimming, out to lunch, had a cocktail with a friend and then out to dinner with hubby.

I look back at my journal when I was horribly depressed and went to a doctor for help. I also see the days of crying with no hope.

I am so glad I worked through those times because I would love to see great grandchildren. Please hang in there.

I honestly did find that when I was busy doing something I felt so much better than lying there crying or sitting in front of the tv moping.

We are here to help. So keep posting.
Posted 9/28/2016 9:12 PM (GMT 0)
Astermix I have read a few of your posts on threads I take it that you are a bit of a rebel. You are right to trust yourself - you don't need the LLMD. You gave him the opportunity to help you and he's not up to the job. Its very common for Lymies to have that come their way. I have had it happen to me. Theres quite a few people treating on their own and doing their own research like PeteZa and Traveller. You have a lot of knowledge yourself. We all get the 'blahs' and have days like that particularly when we have found our hopes misplaced. Keep on being the rebel you are and channel that energy into believing you will find a way, or make one. All the best.
Posted 9/28/2016 9:19 PM (GMT 0)
lucynethel...yes I should party on :) ha ha ha

Awe...thanks Krimpet. I so appreciate your post (and everyone else for that matter). I have ups and down like many of us.

I know Jennydancingfish.....I just cannot pay for one. The co-pay is all I am going to be able to afford. All other financial resources are for the herbals and supplements at this point in time. This one takes insurance too; he is rated as one of the top for treating lyme disease and as I said previously, trained with Burrascano.
Do not get me wrong...he seems like a great guy and he did agree to many tests and he did test me very throughly. For example when when his nurse suggested the eat yogurt (I already do that)...it was such a flawed advice. She never said it should be plain and with active cultures.....it is fine with me because I know the difference between junky yogurt and the real stuff but wow what about a regular joe?
And other stuff too I asked him and he did not seem much concerned.....which was good in some ways but not so good in other ways. Does it mean I should just dismiss some pains?

As I said I was really turned off by the fact that he did not think that taking Euleothero had been helpful prior to abx treatment for my energy levels. I told him it was studied extensively by the Russian over 40 years ago.....still he looked at it (the bottle I brought with me) with a smirk .
Posted 9/28/2016 9:21 PM (GMT 0)
Oh man.....thanks PeteZa and ArtAngel (am I really a rebel?? ha ha ha)......
Posted 9/28/2016 9:29 PM (GMT 0)
Artermix doctors don't like patients to educate them most of the time.

I am very blessed to have a great GP. He did my original testing at Quest labs where I was negative and he is the one that sent me to the neurologist. A few months later I went back to him and told him I had a better test taken and I did have lyme and that I was taking herbs for it.

His reply was, "You will come see me for kidney and liver function testing, right?" I told him I would. He is a great doctor and he lets me make many of my health decisions. I feel lucky.
Posted 9/28/2016 9:44 PM (GMT 0)
So much good support! If this person "doesn't believe" in herbs, I'd drop them like a hot potato. Adding to the perspective of others, who didn't have access to anti-biotics OR an LLMD, that a solid herbal protocol, good nutrition, modifying your lifestyle and asking questions here... well... it may seem like it gets worse for a bit...but things S L O W L Y clear up! Hang in there. Fire this person's sorry bum. Just my very strong opinion.
Humans have been treating illnesses with herbs before "science" was even out of diapers. I would much rather trust the wisdom of mother nature, the wisdom of those studying her wisdom that has been refined for so very long. I KNOW people benefit from abx, but I also know some DON'T. I know people benefit from herbs, and I would like to hear from those who they felt like it was a TOTAL waste. Hang in there...fire his bum..just fire it.
Posted 9/28/2016 11:02 PM (GMT 0)
Im sorry arterimix he is dumb for smirking at the eleuthero. I am sure you can still get better without an llmd, many many do!
Posted 9/28/2016 11:53 PM (GMT 0)
Artermix - you said: "You down play many side effects because you are strong and can handle it. I cannot."

I don't have many side effects from the antibiotics. I don't need to downplay them.

I herx from treatment - and some of the herxes have been really, really difficult.

I don't know if I'm strong. I don't think I am. In the beginning of all this - prediagnosis - I cried every day...sometimes twice or three times a day.
Even after diagnosis...early in treatment I still cried every evening when my symptoms flared.
My thoughts would go all over the place...and I'd be thinking I had the worst, incurable, rarest diseases...and I'd be googling them...and get in a panic.

I don't think a LLMD has to be knowledgeable about herbs. That's not why I would go to him, heck I don't even expect that from my LLND. I think the herbal routes are so individual that even a knowledgeable LLND may not choose a protocol that would work for me...or one I'd like.
I prefer Buhner. I wouldn't expect the LLND's/LLMD"s to knowledgeable in several different herbal protocols.
Posted 9/29/2016 1:46 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks Girlie....your post made me feel better. I know it has been hard but we all handle life and ailment with different degree of tolerance. We all have different fears too. What you fear is not what I fear and vice versa (maybe we have the same fears who knows). I recall crying when I did not know I had lyme, and the research i did brought me to lyme disease....and it was truthfully disheartening o read all the overwhelming information.

I am doing the Buhner protocol and adding slowly other herbals.
Posted 9/29/2016 1:59 AM (GMT 0)
Girlie, while we are all very different beings, is there ANY time frame that is any "average" before Lyme patients begin to feel if Herb treatment is one the person is going to respond to or NOT? Trying to say something simple but with us all being so different and our disease beings SO different, I just keep hearing those words spoken to me by that jerk with the herb store a few weeks back? Him saying to me that I would know in 4 weeks if herbs were working or NOT and that I might be one of those that NEVER gets better EVER and that 20% never did respond to any sort of Lyme treatment.
Just started ME off on the wrong foot? With your history here, I suspect you know as well as anyone if that was true. I had 28 days on oral ABX finished 7 days and today is 30 days on herbs. Tomorrow I bump up to 100% FULL herbs. Do or die :-)) And so far I feel zero help from anything at all. I have lost even more use of legs to the point I can't even get to mailbox with a walker etc. But man I HAVE learned to whine & snivvle to get the wife to bring me treats when she gets home. She says she is gonna get me a dog collar and everything too....
Posted 9/29/2016 2:07 AM (GMT 0)
From my experience, with herbs, for the anti-bacterials, you know something is happening if:
A. you have a herx reaction. If you add slow, you might not have this.
B. in my experience - 2 months to notice a change.
In Buhners FAQ he is purported to say 14 days to 60 days. So for me, farther out.
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/faqs/
I really like this person's blogpost about the journey, and length of time..
https://www.lymedisease.org/jen-crystal-lyme-recovery-2/
The one bit I don't agree with is "In my personal experience, herbs that work against tick-borne illnesses are an excellent adjunct therapy to—but not a replacement for—antibiotics." Well - for some of us, we have no choice, can't afford an LLMD, no access to anti-biotics. We only have herbs. Yeah, they may not be a replacement for anti-biotics - but if you want to go on living, herbs are the path.

Post Edited (multifacetedme) : 9/28/2016 8:10:45 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/29/2016 2:27 AM (GMT 0)
Did anyone listen to the RAWLS webinar on lyme tonight? Has anyone used the RAWLS protocol?
Herbs only.....I am too braindead to remember what he said but it was a pretty convenient package....
Posted 9/29/2016 2:30 AM (GMT 0)
Mike - it is different for everyone.

It is not unusual to feel no change within a month of treatment.

So you really are quite early 'in the game'.

What is 100%? How much of each herb?
Posted 9/29/2016 1:59 PM (GMT 0)
Yes....to pick up from where Girlie left yesterday asking mike....what is 100%.....???

My understanding is that with herbs there is not 100% since it is adjusted individually.

Buhner also said if after 6 weeks no improvement at all ....stop protocol.

I am almost a week 6 and I have not seen long term improvement. I just boosted the dosage if herbs too and today I am crippled like I was in March. Horrible left side headache-earache and head pressure all night. Nothing over the counter is helping. And not ever Rx (Dexketoprofene Trometamol) is doing a thing.

I cannot say this is herx because it begun slowly 3 days ago.
Perhaps not enough detox as I have ran out of Milk Thistle capsules....
Posted 9/29/2016 3:28 PM (GMT 0)
It actually makes me really sad, to see that you or someone can feel like this. I hope the best for you - you never know when you can feel better! Can be anytime now.
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