Help me make a decision wrestling with Herbs vs. Abx

I did my 6-8 weeks of abx. My question is if you stopped abx and switched over to herbals did you have any time where you relapsed?

Yesterday I felt like I had the flu. Couldn't get out of bed, ached all over, and felt warm. A little better today but still weak. It feels to me, and this could be incorrect, like my bacterial load is up again.

My wish is to up my herbs - I'm currently only taking Stephania/Elue/Ash. and then add in Beyond Balance when it arrives.

QUESTION: Is there any danger in NOT bringing down the bacterial load with abx? Meaning, having it take longer with just herbs? This is my one concern.

I keep wrestling with this question. Last week LLMD prescribed Mepron (just swtiched it to Malarone) and Zithro (and just switched that to Biaxin) because I had reaction in past with erthyromycin (Zithro from same family). I don't want to take any of it.

Husband is a science guy and thinks I'm nuts not to follow LLMD orders.

Recap: I hate taking antibiotics. If I will heal faster and it's the safest/fastest way to bring bacterial load down I will take them. I get this is a controversial post. No judgement just welcoming opinions from those who have made the choice -either way.

Denikeef,

Thank you. Do you have chronic lyme or caught it right away? I think I was reinfected and my have had it already, not sure if that makes a difference in bacterial load.

So you never did abx? Did you feel like your bacterial load was high? I get a fluish/weak feeling when that happens. I think this is what it is anyway.

May I ask what the Buhner herb for muscle tone is? Very interested in that one.

I find Stephania/Elu worked like a miracle for brain fog and weakness. I also swear by Rishi green tea and spirulina manna. I put one tablespoon of Spirulina in my smoothie and feel better instantly. Hope that helps you!

If it were just me I would take the risk. My husband is putting pressure on me to take the abx. (he just believes you do what the LLMD tells you to do).

Thanks.

Sam,

Hi. How are YOU doing? I hope it's been a good week for you.

Thank you for the clarification. A bit scary that my LLMD doesn't know this.

Not sure what I would do without you guys. Seriously! Thank you.

Peteza,

Thank you! When you stopped abx and switched over to herbs had you had a relapse in lyme symptoms? For example I felt pretty good after my Doxcy was over. I feel now like it is a bit of a relapse. It feels bacteria-like (weak, unwell, fluish) so that to me means bacteria. Now, I'm wondering if we just always have bacteria until our lyme is in remission, or if the load can go too high and it is best to take the abx. I know this is impossible to answer.

You are right, I guess I can try and see what happens...

Thanks!

Huddie said...
I did my 6-8 weeks of abx. My question is if you stopped abx and switched over to herbals did you have any time where you relapsed?

Yesterday I felt like I had the flu. Couldn't get out of bed, ached all over, and felt warm. A little better today but still weak. It feels to me, and this could be incorrect, like my bacterial load is up again.

My wish is to up my herbs - I'm currently only taking Stephania/Elue/Ash. and then add in Beyond Balance when it arrives.

QUESTION: Is there any danger in NOT bringing down the bacterial load with abx? Meaning, having it take longer with just herbs? This is my one concern.

I keep wrestling with this question. Last week LLMD prescribed Mepron (just swtiched it to Malarone) and Zithro (and just switched that to Biaxin) because I had reaction in past with erthyromycin (Zithro from same family). I don't want to take any of it.

Husband is a science guy and thinks I'm nuts not to follow LLMD orders.

Recap: I hate taking antibiotics. If I will heal faster and it's the safest/fastest way to bring bacterial load down I will take them. I get this is a controversial post. No judgement just welcoming opinions from those who have made the choice -either way.

What I have seen most often is that when switching to herbs people herx, because the herbs will help support the immune function, reduce inflammation and more - abx don't do this, and even if the person was doing things to help support those issues, the herbs are now also doing this, so the body ends up with more help in healing - so it's not a relapse, but a herx.

Your doc put you on babs treatment ...so do you have babs ?... no amount of support herbs are going to kill the bugs ! They may ameliorate symptoms temporarily ...
one drug 10 days sent me into a tail spin i have not been able to recover ...also conversely iv abx have resolved my joint pain and twitching some what ..

i never herxed from samento banderol....now andrographis and smilax was great ...houttynia i didnt feel ...

I have a deadly bartonella infection ..i still have not ccommitted to rifampin ..it put my friend in er after a month ...
can i pulse it or will it become resistan . ..
would uou take herbs to boost your immune if you had tuberculosis? Buhner has insane amounts and good logic but in reality how many here have out lyme into remission ?..trav used artmesia and houttynia in her chron tonic ..herbs are great in supporting organs ...and we need that ..however ...

kill build kill ...i feel like i am dying today with a cold ...sorry just food for thought

While eleuthero is an herb that helps raise the immune function rather than "kill" the bacteria, it still ends up helping to kill the bacteria (from supporting the immune function better), so that's why we still have to be careful.

Other herbs that Buhner suggests for 'remodeling' immune function:
Cat's claw
Cordyceps
Ashwagandha
glycyrrhiza (licorice root)

I actually use three of those in my treatments - cats claw, ashwagandha, and licorice root.

I think you are already on cat's claw (?) and the eleuthero, so the next one you could try would be licorice root, or ashwagandha. Ashwagandha is very helpful to the adrenals and thyroid as it's an adaptogen, and will help balance out - bring it down if too high, raise if too low - the function of those two organs.

For actual "killing", Buhner suggests Andrographis, as it's actually antispirochetal. But, he also states that it's only effective for about 60% of those that use it, and that allergic reactions were possible, but that they are rarely a serious threat to our health (I summarized that part!).

Buhner writes: "Andrographis is the best antispirochetal for borrelial infections (at this time). It is moderately antispirochetal (people have reported herx reactions from the use of the herb - most commonly during infection with Borrelia miyamotoi, which is very susceptible to this plant). The herb enhances the immune function, protects the heart muscle, is anti-inflammatory (helping with arthritic symptoms), crosses the blood-brain barrier where it is active as both an antispirochetal and a calming agent, enhances liver function and protects the liver.

It's a widely systemic herb, making it good for these kinds of infections. It also has some decent effects (not as good a Uncaria rhynchophylla) in helping correct inflammation-mediated neurodegeneration in the brain. It does inhibit a number of the cytokines that become active during Lyme infections: E-selectin, TNF-a, IL-6 and IL-8."

Sam,

Thanks for asking after my son. He was better on Sunday. Saturday was scary for him (and me). He was off yesterday. Today is his first day back to school on both Mepron/Zith. Wondering about him all day. He leaves apartment at 7:05am and gets home at 5:00pm then three hours of homework. That is a very long day for a kid fighting these infections. He also seems to have a chest cold on top of all that. I would pull him out of school for a leave of absence to heal, but my husband won't hear of that. My husband doesn't fully understand this. He believes you take antibiotics, you get better. The end.
Ugh.

Trav,

Thanks. All of this priceless information is going into my Trav file.

I'll start red root today and also add in CC. I tried it at the beginning so maybe I'm clearer/stronger now. May as well try.

I will go VERY SLOW with the tox-ease. THANK YOU wise Trav xo

Glad you posted this! I have an appt in three weeks with my LLMD. Although I did, and still do, have some reservations about her, I AM seeing some improvements here and there. I think it is my Lyme symptoms that are improving; I think what is left is more Bart. I want to talk to her about attacking Bart next with abx and see what she says. Not really sure what to do if she doesn't agree but I may go strictly herbal. It seems her protocol of only one abx at a time is working for me; some improvement and herxs have been only slightly horrific lol But then I wonder if I'm risking more long-term damage by not being on an aggressive protocol.

1000Daisies said...

Traveler said...
Daisies, is Kid #2 detoxing well? Most people that can tolerate the herbs that find themselves worse are actually herxing/pushing through the treatments too fast.

Just a thought. Just because one person can use herbals and only have issues with herxing certainly does not mean that they are right for everyone. It's no different than the abx on that.

Just to be clear - I am very frustrated, at this point, with both antibiotics and herbals, given our experiences.

I have a lot of posts about Kid#2 and our struggles. We are going slower than slow on the herbals, so I doubt we are going too fast. I know this board is strong about advocating for detoxing, but we just don't see the benefits personally. I know they say it's cumulative, but for example, we've been doing pinella/burbur for many months now with no positive effect (among numerous other detox methods). I wish there were more posts about why trying so many detox methods have no effect on a small minority of us.
I think something is wrong with my kids that is causing an issue with them fully getting well, and none of us have been able to figure it out. So, yes, I admit it - I'm frustrated. I think our issue is beyond abx and herbals... definitely complicated for the minority of us that truly can't get well given YEARS of treatment with too many failures. At least Kid#1 is more functioning, but his flares are getting worse this year. Kid#3 seems better (not fully well). But Kid#2 is struggling immensely. He can't even go to school full time - again!
Sorry - I'm kind of a downer... really tough fall this year despite all of our attempt this year.

I surely don't blame you for being frustrated, and I sooo wish you could find a doctor that had enough knowledge with it all to help guide you.

But, if I were trying to only use 2, 3 or even 4 detoxing routines only, I too would not have felt the benefits of treatments. Gene mutations, mold exposure and multiple tick-borne infections can all prevent us from detoxing well, and we know that Lyme bacteria release neuro toxins, so we must be able to get those toxins out of our bodies.

For example, I have not had any of the gene mutation testing done, although I do seem to have the same kind of issues as those that do - so I figured it was best for me to assume that I did and work to get my body to detox much better. It took a lot of diet changes as things with my body changed,
I use a foot soak,
dry skin brushing,
Lymph massages as needed,
making sure my bowels moved at least once a day (sorry if it's TMI!)
pushing myself to drink at least 64 ounces of lemon water each and every day,
liver/gall bladder flushes (all natural) as needed,
Apple cider vinegar,
Quercetin,
Alpha Lipoic Acid,
oil pulling with coconut oil and a few drops of tea tree oil,
using Yogi brand detox tea,
taking activated charcoal (when necessary),
and keeping the amount of stress in my life at a bare minimum.

Daisies,

I just found the Delta Gardens Flower Essence Research Facebook page. I just watched two videos from two moms - initials are C and A. PLEASE go watch. I called for an appointment. I left comments on both videos. My initials in real life are SC. Please watch - they will give you hope. Both moms exhausted every resource and hit rockbottom. The stories are really inspiring. I have a feeling they will resonate with you.

Am I wrong in my comprehension that Japanese Knotweed is a killing herb?
Or Hout?