Can HERBS only really bring down bacteria load? Getting worried

Huddle, let your heart guide you. I know beyond a shadow if a doubt that the herbs work, but no one can guarantee that they will work for every person. There's no treatment out there that anyone can say that of for these infections.

But, I can say that worrying about your treatment working almost constantly doesn't do anyone any good, and the choice has to be yours.

First of all, no one can tell you how long either means of treatment would take. I'm the perfect example of that because I used pharma abx for 12 months and was much worse off than when I started treatment. But, with 12 months of using herbs, I had healed from not only Lyme, but Bartonella as well.

That's why I say listen to your heart. Herbs work differently than pharma abx. It's hard to compare them, but we do know that a person must still support their body and detox no after which modality (form of medicine) is chosen.

I believe that this is such a personal decision that here in this community, we should be careful to respect all forms of treatment - as long as they are safe, and effective for these infections. Over the years I have been a little surprised to see so many different treatments works for some and not others that it seemingly should have worked for.

Chances are that the reason you are having to go slowly has a lot more to do with being very effective for you than you not tolerating them well. If you are so inclined, I would encourage you to stick with it. If the herbs have started relieving symptoms (like your arthritic issues you mentioned) that's conformation that they are working for you.

And, if you feel your lymph system is struggling, why not do lymph massages and other things to help support it more?

Yep, when I did the pharma abx, only one person had healed without using abx on this forum, so I didn't think much of it. But I sure changed my mind about 3 months in when the herx from hell really set in!! And I lived it for another 9 months.

Well, from what I'm reading about Chinese Skullcap is that it makes all meds - herbs and pharma - a lot more potent, plus it's a strong antiviral - so it's a hard hitter, simply because it can make everything else you take more effective. Start very slow on this one. It also says in Buhner's Lyme book (2nd edition)) that "Type 1 Diabetics should exercise strong caution with the herb, as it can affect insulin and blood sugar levels." (page 417)

But, the BB1 will be strong as well: shop.lwtinternational.com/MC_BB_1_1_Ounce_Drops_by_Beyond_Balance_p/mc-bb-1.htm

Soo, it kind of depends on what you are wanting to do - that will tell you what to take next.

No, Skullcap does not do the same things as CC - at least not from what I read.

Yes, I think Beyond Balance products are good, but like all things with Lyme, not everything works for everyone.

Why not start red root? It's a supportive herb for the lymph system, or hawthorne as it supports/protects the heart?

You may be able to tolerate the CC at a later time, so hold on to it.

I would watch yourself carefully if you choose to use the Chinese Skullcap with the hypoglycemia. I don't know if it will affect you much or at all, but it would pay to be cautious. From what I read, Chinese Skullcap basically just makes everything more potent, so I would encourage you to work on adding in the other herbs first.

I'm sure others have a different point of view, so you can see what others have to say as the day goes on.

That's because there are no clear cut lines! This would be a whole lot easier if there was!

LOL!

Huddie

Buhner's healing philosophy resonated with me - big time.

Killing (if needed) is the last item on his agenda. As PeteZa described, Buhner's protocols are much about healing the body and strengthening it so Lyme patients in treatment can become like those who have always been asymptomatic.

What good is killing bugs if the body is still damaged and the immune system too weak? We can never rid ourselves of every last pathogen.

Healing from Lyme requires a step-by-step and holistic approach...and the goal is to become asymptomatic.

Get some more support herbs going - you'll feel better as a result and, hopefully, your path will be more clear to you.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill: "When walking through hell, don't stop to take a seat".

CD3764 said...
Huddie

Buhner's healing philosophy resonated with me - big time.

Killing (if needed) is the last item on his agenda. As PeteZa described, Buhner's protocols are much about healing the body and strengthening it so Lyme patients in treatment can become like those who have always been asymptomatic.

What good is killing bugs if the body is still damaged and the immune system too weak? We can never rid ourselves of every last pathogen.

Healing from Lyme requires a step-by-step and holistic approach...and the goal is to become asymptomatic.

Get some more support herbs going - you'll feel better as a result and, hopefully, your path will be more clear to you.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill: "When walking through hell, don't stop to take a seat".

CD, this is exactly my doctor #1 philosophy so much so that it makes me want to vomit (lol). It really frustrates me because deep down I know he is right. My doctor refused to do anything additional at my last appointment because he said that I needed to work on boosting my immune function more. I looked at him like he had 6 heads (lol-again). I almost left in tears. So I do understand the frustration between support and killing. One thing is apparent in my case is that my hormones have really taken a hit. Doctor #2 got me to support my adrenals and he said I could benefit from progesterone support. So all in all everyone is right now looking at more support. Also doctor #2 is sure he has Lyme but has no symptoms.....why...robust immune system. He's treated his wife and son previously.

Adding to the conversation: with the exception of a round of bactrim for a bladder infection post procedure in the hospital (had to have a catheter) its been all herbal. December last year - I was convinced I was dying. Presently - I feel ALMOST back to normal. I am in the part of the process where you continue taking herbs for a few months after the herxing stops. My energy is back, my brain is back, my mood is stable, my strength is coming back. I still get some pain flares, and I still have GERD which contributes to the sore throat, and I still have low body temperature - but it has increased a bit, and a bit of cramping in my calves when I walk uphill - but I don't feel like I am dying. There is a cognitive glitch I noticed of late of thinking one word and writing another - which I've had, but I've always had issues with dyslexia - dance cleared up a lot of it in that I think some of this was related to PTSD. I don't track symptoms any more, but in December, I am going to do this, so I can compare my december list of 2015 with december of 2016

1. Protecting endothelial structures (pg 214) - Polygonum cuspidatum (Hu Zhang or Japanese Knotweed)

2. Cytokine remodulation (pg 214) - Salvia miltiorrhiza (Red Sage or pinyin: dānshēn) and Scutellaria baicalensis (Skullcap or Huang Qin)

3. Collagen protection (pg 214) - Great lakes gelatin, Vit C, Selenium, etc - My personal recommendation for collagen is Protein Essentials Hydrolyzed Collagen.

4. Immune remodulation (pg 215) - Unicaria tomentosa (Cat's Claw), Cordyceps mycelium (a mushroom), withania somnifera (ashwagandha), Eleutherococcus senticosus, Glycyrrhiza (licorice)

5. Antispirochetal (pg 215) - Andrographis


Step one: Stop the inflammation brought about by BB, breaking down the collagen throughout the body.
Step two: Support the formation and strength of collagen.
Step three: Design specific herbal interventions for the unique symptom picture of the person.
Step four: Strengthen the immune function.
And only in step five, use herbal anti-spirchetals to control the infection.

On step three: Design specific herbal interventions for the unique symptom picture of the person. -- this is where you address the most horrible symptom you have. If it is racing heart you would try for some heart healthy herbs (Hawthorn, motherwort, etc). If it is lymph, at this time you would address that (try Red Root). This is why Buhner's books are important.

I had great success following Buhner's ways. I did not try and reinvent all the work he had done. I stuck to his ways.

However, I also listened to my body and when something was not agreeable, I put it aside and moved on. I always knew I could come back later and try it again.

I detoxed like my life depended on it.

I basically did Buhner's herbs on this list (which is copied from his book) in the order he put out there. I figure he put them in that order and numbered them because that is the way he wanted the healing to take place.

Huddie, I did MC-BB1 and Tox Ease GL before I ever started Buhner's list of herbs. That was just the way they came into my life.

I don't have much to add but I will say I am terrible about second guessing myself and constantly questioning/researching if I'm doing the right thing. It is my stupid brain! I feel you on that! But you are on the right track. Is your LLMD supportive of using herbals? Perhaps he can offer some guidance too if he's comfortable.
Otherwise, you've gotten loads of great info from here.

Huddie said...
Peteza,

Hi. Thanks for this. Now after reading I realize you were wonderful to send this to me once before. Lyme brain! I wonder if you never herxed because you did Tox-Ease first, then BB.

Did you stop BB when you began Buhner?

I have been feeling a little different and I think it's from the Tox-Ease. Tolerable but I suppose it's working.

1.I'm doing Stephania (the replacement for JK)
2. This is my blank - I need to fill in with something.
3. Doing bone broth with hydrolized collagen added to it.
4. Doing elue, ash, and AHCC (a mushroom complex)
5. Also blank

Do you think BB1 can be considered to a #2 substitute?

For whatever reason I just go blank when I pick up the Buhner books. OR any lyme book. I can still read for pleasure but the lyme books just do not resonate.

Thanks Peteza! I hope you and your hubby are well.

Huddie

Per Buhner, #2 is Dan Shen (Red Sage/Salvia Miltiorhizza) and Baikal (Chinese) Skullcap

I believe I remember you saying that Dan Shen didn't agree with you. If that's the case, put it aside and try it later in your protocol.

Go low and slow with the Chinese Skullcap - even if this means putting 1 drop in a small glass of water and dividing that into 3 or 4 "servings" and take only one "serving" per day.

I recommend similar with Dan Shen whenever you feel comfortable.

Slow healing is better than no healing.

#5 is Andrographis

I, like PeteZa, didn't add it until much later in my protocol. I consider it a "clean-up" herb.