Band 41 Indeterminate, Band 58 positive = LYME?

Huddie according to dr j band 41 means lyme. He is the doctor from the babesia episode on monsters inside me. He is the one with the excellent blog lymemd.blogspot.com

I'm not sure if I agree that 58 is always a european strain. It's a heat shock protein. I had this particular band and I test fully positive via c6 ELISA for Borrelia Burg.

41 is controversial. I researched the heck out of it. Most popular LLMD's do not consider it a specific Lyme band. I know it's the flagella and many bacteria have flagella. H. Pylori has flagella and half of the people in the world have it (according to Mayo Clinic). For most it does not cause an issue. We are just loaded with different bacteria.

Many Americans have digestive issues due to our diet unless he eats totally organic, gluten-free, etc. If he eats a standard American diet I would be exploring Leaky Gut and looking at ways to treat that (bone broth, probiotic,etc).

Itchy scalp - this is something a couple of us in our family struggle with. A weakened immune system (gut health) can definitely cause skin issues. Yeast/fungal can get out of control with a weakened immune system. I've had itchy scalp and so did my son. Ketoconizole shampoo cleared up scalp issues - which is used to treat yeast/fungal issues. I'm inclined to think it's something with our water or possible mold issue. Or, just a weak immune system.

I am split on all this. My 2 girls and husband test positive via the ELISpot test and my son was negative on IGeneX but has 18, 41 on IGM and 41, 58, 31 IND, 39 IND on IGG.

The thing is, they are not sick. So this makes me question the testing or if possibly most people now carry Lyme bacteria. Is it possible that Lyme itself is not making most people sick but the combination of coinfections, parasites, mold, metals, etc?

Personally, I would focus on gut repair and see where that gets you. Just my 2 cents.

The important thing in this context is that lyme is NOT diagnosed by a blood test. It is a clinical diagnosis based on symptoms and exposure.

What are your husbands symptoms? Can you list them?
What exposure has he had? Can you tell us what exposure he has had?

A good screening tool, in my view, is the Horowitz screening tool. If you score over 45, then he indicates this points towards a tick borne infection. I say a tick borne infection because lyme is a bacterial infection and more often than not, there is a co-infection with the bacterial infection.

If your husband's symptoms don't match lyme, or he scored below a 45 on the Horowitz screening tool, of course it is good to look at other things. I like Horowtiz's schematic that lists symptoms and possible causes. i also like "Dr. Google". Doing an exhaustive internet search about the symptoms, listing the possible causes, doing further research and favoring science backed articles (I like pub med)

Did you husband have exposure? Was he in a locale that is tick endemic? Do you have lyme and have you have unprotected sex? If so - this would constitute exposure. Although it is not definitive with regard to the science that lyme is sexually transmitted, the study I looked at, and the reading I've done by people in the field I respect, and discussion with qualified medical professionals - it is conceivable that it can be transmitted sexually. It hasn't been 100% ruled out that it is impossible, but rather, anecdotal and one study I read suggests it can.

Once you suspect lyme BLOOD WORK IS USED TO HELP WITH THE CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS.

I've researched band 41 quite a bit, and it was the only positive I had, with another band, specific to lyme reading as "ind" - which means, there was a reaction, something showed up, but it wasn't strong enough to be a positive. Band 41 is usually the first to show up in a lyme infection. Band 41, although not specific to lyme, is a great diagnostic tool. In China, what they do, is rule out all the other bacteria associated with this band. If all other bacteria are ruled out, and lyme is left, then the diagnosis is lyme. If your husband has Band 41 active, research all possible causes, ask yourself, is this plausible?

Here is the rationale I used when I was considering band 41 for my own case.

A. yes - I had symptoms
B. yes - I had exposure - I danced in grassy fields when ticks are the size of poppy seeds in a town 35 miles away from "lyme" CT. My spouse had a tick bite with a bulls eye rash, this is lyme, we had unprotected sex.

Here is my post from when I was considering band 41

Found this thread - www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2919950

I think I will systematically go through all of the spirochetes that band 41 ++ and look at symptoms.


"The spirochetes are divided into three families (Brachyspiraceae, Leptospiraceae, and Spirochaetaceae), all placed within a single order (Spirochaetales). Disease-causing members of this phylum include the following:
http://www.curezone.org/forums/am.asp?i=1550852
Leptospira species, which causes leptospirosis - not a good match
Borrelia burgdorferi, which causes Lyme disease -symptoms match
Borrelia recurrentis, which causes relapsing fever - not a good match
Treponema pallidum, which causes syphilis - hmm - some things, but others not
Treponema pertenue, which causes yaws" - nope

so - given the symptoms of the other spirochetes aren't good matches.. it makes sense, its lyme. Especially the indeterminate band 31, because this says something was there, and this band is specific to borrelia burgdorferi

These links breaks down the bands and explain the western blot.
www.mdjunction.com/forums/lyme-disease-support-forums/general-support/61532-breakdown-of-igenix-test-bands

/sites.google.com/site/newjerseylyme/lab-tests/tests-explained

www.personalconsult.com/posts/guide-to-understanding-western-blots.html

latitudes.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11802

/www.lymedisease.org/lyme-basics/lyme-disease/diagnosis/

/www.lymedisease.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Image13-link-pdf-brenner.pdf

And - my experience with spouse's with lyme. Put your own oxygen mask on first, and the oxygen mask of your kid's. Lyme is a learning journey that is more than about recovering from illness. It, in my view, requires some deeper shifts. Maybe your DH isn't ready for that. That is his journey. You can drop seeds, offer information, but ultimately he needs to take control of his own health, not you for him. Just my two cents.

P.s. the most conservative organization - CDC - on diagnosing lyme.
anapsid.org/lyme/panel/CDC%20Surveillance%20Case%20Definition.pdf

I might be dead if I had followed their line of reasoning with regard to whether I have/had a tick borne infection or not. I am glad I had more common sense! At the bottom of this document it states in big bold lettering.
"The following wording appears on all Borrelia and other tickborne disease test results produced by the Sonoma County Public Health Laboratory:
Diagnosis should not be based on laboratory tests alone. Results should be interpreted in conjunction with clinical symptoms and patient history."

Post Edited (multifacetedme) : 12/4/2016 9:02:00 AM (GMT-7)

Multiface,

Wow! Thank you so much. This is a very detailed, informative and helpful post. A giant heartfelt thank to you.

My husband has had a weekend home since birth in a very lyme endemic area. We now have a weekend home in that same area. He has had ticks on him in the past. He practically lives in the grass and woods:caring for the lawn, archery, shooting, hunting, dirt biking on our trails. In other words, lots and lots of exposure.

I like what you said about the healing journey. I agree. I have been under treating/caring for myself since my son's diagnosis and now I don't have the strength to think/care for three lyme patients. I will of course, make tea, offer bone broth and supplements but you are correct -they both need to want it. I feel like I expend so much energy convincing my family to make better food choices.

Thanks again. I greatly appreciate your advice.

The combination of his test results AND symptoms is how the diagnoses should be made for your husband.

I had crohns like/level digestive issues in the first few months of lyme. The whole gambit of digestive issues without getting too descriptive.

So when you couple his symptoms: fatigue, mood swings, bad digestive issues (all things I've experienced and many other lymies as well), couple that with the fact you and your children are indeed positive for borrelia and co, then you have to go with the odds and probability.

High probability your husband has borrelia and co infection as well.

More bands doesn't mean more sick.

More bands present means the person's immune system is functioning well enough to produce the antibodies.


Lyme suppresses our immune system...so often we don't test positive - due to our body's inability to mount a response and produce the antibodies.

Huddie said...

My husband has had a weekend home since birth in a very lyme endemic area. We now have a weekend home in that same area. He has had ticks on him in the past. He practically lives in the grass and woods:caring for the lawn, archery, shooting, hunting, dirt biking on our trails. In other words, lots and lots of exposure.

All very good pieces of data.

However I think blinders can be put on sometimes when people try to always find an "outdoorsy" connection.

Vectors that carry the borrelia and co bacteria are found in urban and suburban areas as well. From birds, mice/rodents and our very own pets that can carry ticks. Even mosquitoes and spiders have been found to carry the bacteria(s). And then of course the growing evidence of sexual transmission.

So narrowing it down to just "outdoor/wilderness" exposure is almost irrelevant

My own personal opinion, which is backed by NO science, I repeat NO science (so I'm not trying to make an absolutely claim here) is it's transmissible from human to human contact. Similar to the herpes viruses 1, 6, 8, cold sores, chicken pox, and EBV respectively (I think I got those numbers correct). So saliva transfer. Kissing, sharing cups and utensils, anywhere saliva could be and touched (so even on surfaces and door knobs).

The reason why I have this hunch, which once again is backed by no science, is because there's way to many situational anecdotal evidence that doesn't match the odds and probability.

Countless anecdotal and testimonial evidence of entire families (humans in close quarters like a household) all getting sick with lyme together, with no exposure to outdoorsy things. One of those anecdotal evidence is my own, where me, my sister, and nephew all got sick with lyme and co at the same time by just being in the same house with each other for a week. My sister and nephew live in Rhode Island an absolutely hotbed of lyme. We all got sick after getting together in Virginia (not Rhode Island), in an urban area, in a home. And a year prior my mother got sick with lyme after being visited by my sister and nephew as well.

The probability of my story, even your story Huddie, of a household full of lymies now, and countless others just doesn't match the odds and probability it would take, for in all of these situations a vector with lyme to just float and bounce around and bite everyone, every time. It's not logical nor probable.

Now do I believe lyme still originates from a vector bite, of course, but is it possibly much more contagious than ever thought? I think so.

I'm not sure there isn't any science about transmitting from person to person.

We do know that the Bb is found in seminal and vaginal fluids.

It's very likely IMO that it can be transmitted sexually.


I'm on the fence about whether it's passed on through saliva.

These are my thoughts on transmission and I am not a doctor.

I think lyme travels throughout the body via any highway it can find. Be it blood, lymph, tears, urine, vaginal fluids, seminal fluids and I think even saliva.

I just can't say in my heart that it travels all other avenues, but not saliva. What would keep it from the saliva???

If it can pass the blood brain barrier, I would think that all parts are accessible for lyme travel.

The cdc certainly believes that lyme cannot be transmitted from person to person at all. Lyme Disease.org is totally convinced that lyme can be transmitted sexually. I think it is only time and they will do studies of married couples abstaining from sex and just kissing and it will be proven. But, you got to find those married couples. LOL

We also have to consider that even if it is passed these ways, it is entirely possible that your immune system can knock it out. AND, the western blot would still show bands if you had any type of exposure to BB. That doesn't necessarily mean it is active or causing your symptoms. Right?

Also, it seems that maybe if you are infected this way that the symptoms are not the same or as bad as someone who was infected via vector. Possibly coinfections coming into play. I don't think coinfections (or maybe I'm wrong here) can be passed sexually.

Has there ever been anyone on here who has BB only (no coinfections)?

Of course it's possible to be infected with Lyme only.

I dont know guys hiv and syphilis cant be transmitted through saliva. Also in my fam my brother whose the middle child and my dad have zero lyme symptoms and zero health problems. They are healthy as ox whereas i think my sisters and mom have lyme.
And look at the hadids gigi is perfectly healthy. Its more likely that family diet contributing gut health and genetic mutations shares by family members cause multiple family members to get infected by ticks. Plus according to buhner it can be passed by fleas sandflies etc. I think if it was possible to transmit it through saliva everyone wohld have it like the flu!