TOOTY said...
What is commonly referred to as "Lyme disease" many times is a conglomerate of infectious organisms. It's almost never JUST Lyme disease. It has "trimmings." But, some people do get sick with (just) Lyme disease and it gets figured out right away (ie. they get a bulls-eye rash, etc.) and they get treated immediately and don't become chronic. Or, as the case was for this 41 year-old landscaper, they get a "flu" (so many "flu-s" and I'm convinced not all are viruses) and supposedly get over it, but it's just the beginning (or middle) of that pathogen accumulation. Eventually it overtakes their immune systems. But, what I'm saying is that, yes, there is "just" Lyme disease, and you can get sick from just that! Although -I agree with you- most times it's more than that.
My opinion about the terrain is that it's just another factor equal to the bugs. I personally think the people that get sick just have a higher pathogen burden... usually. I've heard enough anecdotal evidence of people who smoke who have Lyme disease, but are not chronically ill like some of us. Some people can abuse their bodies and abuse their bodies and it seems they never get sick. Completely cleaning up the terrain will not make us well, nor will it keep us from getting sick in the first place if we get too many pathogens or an unlucky combination of them.
Psilociraptor said...
In fact, now that I whacked that p chem final and can be at ease for a little bit I just received Lida H. Mattmans (text)book "Cell Wall Deficient Forms: Stealth Pathogens". I'm only about 4 chapters in and it's admittedly very difficult to read not having any formal background in microbiology. But so far it seems indispensable for anyone who really wants a deep look into pleomorphism and stealth pathogens. There is a lot about spirochetes but it is also very clear right of the bat that they are unique in these capacities in very few ways. I believe you can find the table of contents and some chapters through google books if you wanted to check it out before buying. It's not for the lighthearted and I'm having a seriously difficult time myself. I have to keep google open while reading just for terminology I'm not familiar with. But I figured I'd share since some of you may be more attuned to these topics or at least equally committed to understanding them. I'm not aware of a more thorough resource on the topic. Though unfortunately you can tell data is scarce in some sections
Wow! You are lucky to have a copy of Lida Mattman's book, especially if it's the Third Edition!!! I could have bought a copy of the 3rd edition for $60, but money was tight and I passed it up. I kicked myself for a while! I did borrow it from the library and read a little of it this summer, but I didn't get much covered since it is extremely technical. She was a genius that's for sure! Pleo-morphism & L-forms are a HUGE factor in chronic illness. I copied a couple paragraphs that stood out to me from page 301 that has to do with phages:
"Adsorption of phage, lysogeny, and production of lytic phage can be found in any degree of cell wall deficiency. However, gram-negative bacteria, when protoplasts, appear to lose their phage receptors as do many strains of gram-positive bacteria.
A complete bacterial wall is sometimes necessary for efficient phage induction, as induction of phage by UV (light) does not always occur with spherophasts. However, temperature elevation and mitomycin C are effective in inducing phage production in the absence of complete cell wall."
I won't even comment on those sentences, as there is so much there to discuss. Her research was SO AMAZING!
Sorry that this reply continued the original thread, but I had to comment!I think we're mostly on the same page but the coinfections and pathogen burden are a huge chunk of the terrain itself. Whether we're bitten by a tick or not every person on this planet has blood, mucosal layers, and internal tissues teeming with microorganisms with variable modes of expression that range from benign to opportunistic pathogen. So pathogen load is part of the equation, but how it gets expressed at that level in the first place is contingent on literally everything else including host immunity and the current state of surveillance which may or may not be partially compromised from its preexisting residents. And then of course HLA genes, polymorphisms in cytokine genes, and so on. It's not really appropriate to polarize patients into smokers vs healthy as many lifestyle and environmental factors can be far more insidious. As it's frequently talked about
on this board, the World Health Organization estimates 10-50% of buildings are contaminated with molds and bacteria that may contribute to inflammatory illnesses. Given we divide our lives between many buildings, exposure is nearly ubiquitous though severity varies. As i stated in another thread I got CIDP from my parents swimming pool. While swimming is commonly thought to be a cardio healthy activity it begs the question how artificially maintained stagnant waters may be a cesspool of inflammatory materials. Are people who are uptight about
their academics, eat bad food, and have terrible sleep patterns really healthier than people who don't give a darn work blue collar jobs and smoke cigarettes? It's difficult to impossible to fully characterize the terrain or quantify the contributions each factor makes to it as each persons scenario is unique. As such there is no way to set controls and investigate whether borrelia induced disease is cause or consequence of ill health. All we know is our experiences in the twenty first century where the majority of the planet is exposed to innumerable immunological stressors. In the absence of evidence for whether lyme can occur from borrelia alone in the presence of a healthy terrain, interpretation is purely subjective. And while pathogen load definitely has a substantial role i personally don't believe it's the least common denominator. Should that be the case, antibiotics would be enormously beneficial to all. The reverse is true too. Once pathogen load has been established the terrain may not be correctable until dealt with. They are hand in glove and my personal opinion which i know can't be substantiated is that borrelia within it's natural context is a normal part of many mammalian ecosystems.
As for Lida's book, wish you would have got it!!! Incredibly interesting so far. about
to pick it up again in a minute since i got the house to myself
I ended up paying full price... My university sent me a surprise check last week for courses i dropped when i got ill a few years ago. So i dropped it all on a microscope, Lida's book, and a book on Amazonian herbal medicine i'm really looking forward to as well. Gonna be a good break!
Post Edited (Psilociraptor) : 12/10/2016 1:20:21 PM (GMT-7)