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stop taking probiotics they are neurotoxic.

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Posted 12/14/2016 1:06 AM (GMT 0)
Some soil based probiotics are very bad ...and cannot be killed with af or abx ...not all is kosher and it is a interesting discussion ...i just got a kimbucha starter and it looks friggin nasty ...also started s.boulardi ..but its a yeast too?
Posted 12/14/2016 4:23 AM (GMT 0)

bluelyme said...
Some soil based probiotics are very bad ...and cannot be killed with af or abx ...not all is kosher and it is a interesting discussion ...i just got a kimbucha starter and it looks friggin nasty ...also started s.boulardi ..but its a yeast too?

Yup saccharomyces boulardii is a yeast but it's a good yeast. From what I've read it's probably the single most important strain for helping to prevent c.difficile during antibiotic treatment, and it doesn't seem to be present in a lot of probiotics.

I use Renew Life s.boulardii in conjunction with a separate multi-strain probiotic.
Posted 12/14/2016 5:07 AM (GMT 0)

Mustard Seed said...

bluelyme said...
...........Yup saccharomyces boulardii is a yeast but it's a good yeast. From what I've read it's probably the single most important strain for helping to prevent c.difficile during antibiotic treatment, and it doesn't seem to be present in a lot of probiotics...................




Mmmm, well...saccharomyces boulardii can be either or.............

Like what I mentioned in my previous comment here, whats good for one is not necessarily good for all. As individuals we will do better with certain probiotics that OUR bodies like. My LLMD mentioned fighting fire with fire (yeast for fighting candida yeast) either really works or really doesnt per the individual. Unfortunantly, I was one that could not tolerate saccharomyces boulardii with my candida infection. It didnt go well. Went back to a bacterial probiotic LVS#3, and it did wonders. LVS#3 is more for the intestines, but works for the gut too (did for me anyway, might not for others). LVS can damage your wallet though!

well so much for the tripple italics, looks......wierd! oh well...........

Post Edited (astroman) : 12/13/2016 10:10:10 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/16/2016 4:45 AM (GMT 0)
Everyone is different. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT! What works for one - or even most - won't necessarily work for all. Standard medical efficacy standards require a 70% result. Which means 30% will NOT have the intended result. Some individuals will experience ill results from some probiotics. Either it's the person or it's the wrong probiotic. EVERYONE DOES require gut bacteria to live. But not always the exact same mix of bugs. Diversity is an important key. If you have a bad reaction to something -STOP! Change what you are doing. We are responsible for our own health. Not drs, not government, not forums. This forum is a wonderful resource. But your mileage may vary. Caveat Emptor.
Posted 12/16/2016 5:55 AM (GMT 0)
One thing we need to be careful of, again, is to to not alarm members with our posts. We can link articles, give suggestions, opinions and personal experiences but we walk a fine line with this if we tell people flat out what to take or not take, because we would be practicing medicine illegally by doing so.
Posted 12/16/2016 1:21 PM (GMT 0)
Abhi,

Thank you for trying to help us. I feel your intention is in the right place.

That said, I think you are experiencing Candida herxes. Candida die-off is a neurotoxin and probiotics can make candida feel worse in the beginning. It happened to me two years ago when I aggressively treated candida. Even probiotics would cause a herx. It is the candida though, not the probiotic.

Try a different one and go slow. VSL is a medical probiotic that is excellent for people with sensitive guts.

Feel better.
Posted 12/17/2016 3:54 AM (GMT 0)
Wow. So the OP, is actually using a probiotic that works (which is great, because there's a lot of baloney probiotics out there) because he is having die off and he thinks it's bad?!?

You feel bad because it's actually working. The "bad" microbes are getting their but kicked by the good microbes that you put and is colonizing in your gut.

You want this to happen.

When I was battling candida/fungus/yeast, I would be in the fetal position every night because WW3 was happening in my gut. It's how you know it's working.
Posted 12/17/2016 2:08 PM (GMT 0)
Dacarte,

The same thing happened to me when I began treating candida almost three years ago. I dreaded taking the probiotics. And I had taken probiotics everyday. This was a new kind and it was doing its job.
Posted 7/26/2017 2:39 PM (GMT 0)
I came across this because I too have issues when taking probiotics. I have tried taking them on and off multiple times only to stop within a week. The latest attempt has been real recent as I am preparing to treat ABX for lyme. Whenever I take them I feel bloated and just a general malaise feeling, my B movements are long and thin however not loose or water. The upside is I always sleep like a baby. This time though after week my sleeping hasn't been so great and my headaches have been daily along with hunger pains upon waking and immediate loose stool after eating. So either this stuff is creating a die off or some people like myself just don't agree with them. I have never tried Keifer or sauerkraut though. Can you just used store bought?
Posted 7/26/2017 5:15 PM (GMT 0)

mcspike said...
My lyme literate Dr is an intergrative Homeopathic ND who used chinese herbal protocol for FIRST 9 months of treatment. There wasnt any need for probiotics as the herbs are antifungal.

Then I began doxycycline, and now amoxicillin and I NEED probiotics to prevent candida. Since I dont already have yeast overgrowth, I dont have any dieoff, thus no herxing!!!


Even without yeast overgrowth - people DO experience herxing. Herxing is from the die-off of the bacteria that produce endotoxins. When our body is flooded with these toxins and can't keep up..it creates inflammation resulting in the increase of symptoms and even new symptoms. That is a herx.

Or...are you just talking about Candida herx? You don't have that?
Posted 7/26/2017 8:59 PM (GMT 0)

multifacetedme said...
If antibiotics must be used (and there are certainly situations where this is the case), special care should be taken to not only restore their gut flora using probiotic foods and supplements.

ha. if life would be that easy. take a pill and your flora is back to normal!

True that, your flora after antibiotics will NEVER be normal, until you eat some ... dirt (i don't want to be grose here and really say what 'dirt' means). we all do... believe it or not, in tiny pieces every day, microscopic parts that are not cleaned from friends, family, relatives and workers. They get in your stomach from your hands or from uncooked food and salad and slowly you get your flora back... yes grose, i know, but that's how life works.

and soon you will get this in the form of a pill ! god bless when that will happen...
/www.wired.com/2016/11/microbiome-therapy-making-fecal-transplants-better/

so seriously. what we get now as probiotics (contains what? 1-5 maybe 10 strains of bacteria?!) are a joke....

"The colon, in contrast, contains a densely-populated microbial ecosystem with up to 1012 cells per gram of intestinal content.[9] These bacteria represent between 300 and 1000 different species.[9][10] However, 99% of the bacteria come from about 30 or 40 species.[11] As a consequence of their abundance in the intestine, bacteria also make up to 60% of the dry mass of feces.[12] Fungi, archaea, and viruses are also present in the gut flora, but less is known about their activities.[13]"
/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora#Classifications

probiotics, maybe they help a bit get things under control with your digestion.... but get your normal flora back ?! no way !
Posted 12/13/2020 8:23 AM (GMT 0)
So any news about those FMT pills?
Posted 12/13/2020 12:24 PM (GMT 0)

abhi said...
as my own experience my biggest enemy is my probiotics they only make sympotams worse insted of how many antibiotics i take.no one know this dark side of probiotics .only one or two website mention this and this is absoutly true that probiotics are neurotoxic.i find this clue after 6 month of struggle with probiotics.they not only interfier in recovery process but make sympotam 1000 times worsen.my major sympotams start after pills of probiotics
1 whole body vibration
2 strange feeling in throat
3 ataxia worsen(dizziness)
4 musulse twiching
5 heart paltipation
6 brain fog worsen
7 numbness in hand
8 biggest one extreme tightness in lung for 6 months
SO IF YOU THINK YOUR SYMPOTAMS NOT IMPROVING OVER COURSE OF ANTIBIOTIC THEN PLEASE FOLLOW MY ADVICE NOT TOUCH PROBIOTICS FOR 20 DAYS AND REMAIN ONLY ON ANTIBIOTICS.THIS IS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. PLEASE SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCE..COMMENT PLEASE[url]

http://www.mommypotamus.com/popular-probiotic-strain-may-induce-neurotoxicity/

.
You may have yeast or parasites. I take.bifido mood boost because bifidobacteriums are needed for digestion and keeping bad bacteria away , however, I will not touch any antibiotics with lactobacillus it made me worse as already had.100% lactobacillus in my guy which was an overgrowth. Some ppl don't need probiotics and actually cause an overgrowth or more problems when taking them if not needed
Posted 12/13/2020 12:58 PM (GMT 0)
Actually I think everyone saying that abhi is wrong are missing something.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that probiotics are neurotoxic, they help many people, but it’s more nuanced and less cut and dry than good or bad.

Some people CANNOT handle probiotics. They colonize the small intestine and cause huge problems. I find it interesting what he says about developing neurological and CNS symptoms, especially the inner vibration, as I have that, and mine started right after a huge bout w a monster case of SIBO, so bad I lost 15 lbs.

This helps tell me that I’m at least on the right track w this microbiome thing.


As for the FMT pills, I have a call w a dr at FMTSolution next week. They drive you across the border to Mexico, give you two FMTs while you stay at a hotel on the beach, and they send you home w a bag full of pills. It’s expensive like $15k all in, and I wonder if the pills really work as well as an enema. I also don’t understand why you just can’t buy the pills yourself thru mail, maybe it’s illegal. Will find this out.
Posted 12/13/2020 1:14 PM (GMT 0)
Abhi, just one question, can you specify wish probiotic brand and manufacturer, bacteria strains did you took, please?
Posted 12/13/2020 1:42 PM (GMT 0)
This is super interesting. I’m reading through all of Abhi’s old posts. He got sibo from a probiotic (so he had SIBO just like me, although mine didn’t come from probiotic). He started to develop nerve pain and dizziness and stuff, exactly like me.

Then in some of his posts he states that it’s due to lactic acidosis/lactic acid buildup (lactobicillus create lactic acid, and so does a thiamine deficiency), and he’s treating it with IV thiamine. This is super interesting to me because I made a post a few weeks ago about thiamine deficiency and how sibo makes it worse and it creates lactic acid buildup, and now I’ve been using high dose bentofiamine and it’s helping my nerve pain

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 12/13/2020 6:46:34 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/13/2020 3:07 PM (GMT 0)
Abhi's experience sounds like an MCAS reaction to high-histamine strains that are included in many probiotic formulas. This is how I react to high-histamine probiotic strains, too. There's nothing wrong with the probiotics, they just cause an MCAS reaction, in my case.

If anyone else thinks they might be experiencing MCAS reactions to probiotics, then keep in mind that fermented foods will cause those reactions for you as well. Here's a list of histamine-lowering probiotic strains: Bifidobacterium infantis
Lactobacillus gasseri
Lactobacillus rhamnosus
Bifidobacterium longum
Lactobacillus plantarum
Bifidobacterium breve
Lactobacillus salivarius
Bifidobacterium lactis
Bifidobacterium Bifidum – (source)
Lactobacillus reuteri
Saccharomyces Boulardii

These are histamine-neutral:
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus Lactis
Lactococcus Lactis

These are histamine-raising (do not take!):Lactobacillus bulgaricus
Lactobacillus casei
S. thermophilus
Lactobacillus delbrueckii
B Lichenformis
Lactobaccilus helveticus
Bacillus Coagulans
Posted 12/13/2020 3:30 PM (GMT 0)

saraeli said...
Abhi's experience sounds like an MCAS reaction to high-histamine strains that are included in many probiotic formulas. This is how I react to high-histamine probiotic strains, too. There's nothing wrong with the probiotics, they just cause an MCAS reaction, in my case.

If anyone else thinks they might be experiencing MCAS reactions to probiotics, then keep in mind that fermented foods will cause those reactions for you as well. Here's a list of histamine-lowering probiotic strains: Bifidobacterium infantis
Lactobacillus gasseri
Lactobacillus rhamnosus
Bifidobacterium longum
Lactobacillus plantarum
Bifidobacterium breve
Lactobacillus salivarius
Bifidobacterium lactis
Bifidobacterium Bifidum – (source)
Lactobacillus reuteri
Saccharomyces Boulardii

These are histamine-neutral:
Lactobacillus acidophilus
Lactobacillus Lactis
Lactococcus Lactis

These are histamine-raising (do not take!):Lactobacillus bulgaricus
Lactobacillus casei
S. thermophilus
Lactobacillus delbrueckii
B Lichenformis
Lactobaccilus helveticus
Bacillus Coagulans

That doesn’t add up because he stopped the probiotic quickly but 1y later was still complaining about the issues
Posted 12/13/2020 5:44 PM (GMT 0)
Just an FYI - this is an old thread with a lot of posts dated with today’s date -in case you didn’t notice.
Posted 12/15/2020 8:29 PM (GMT 0)
As someone who has always had weird issues with very specific and allegedly safe ingredients I won't flat rule out abhis experience as bunk.

Wegmans, a east coast high end grocery chain has a "naturally flavored" water line. Drink one bottle now and then, no effects. Buy a case in the summer and have 1 or 2 a day and my mouth above the jar line hurts like its infected. This also happens instantly with our local C-store house brand and Raspberry Iced Tea.

Plus in my nearly instant heart arrhythmia (15 minutes or less) from anything with aspartame, we're talking 4-6 ounces of diet coke.

Can you be certain my recently appearing afternoon headaches that seemed to coincide with my switch from yogurt once a day to several different probiotics twice a day aren't related?

Its absolutely possible that some people are especially sensitive to certain ingredients that are GAS (general accepted as safe ingredients) in the probiotics.

Just sayin'

T
Posted 12/16/2020 12:21 AM (GMT 0)

saraeli said...

These are histamine-raising (do not take!):Lactobacillus bulgaricus
Lactobacillus casei

Both of these are in one of my probiotics and if they raise histamine levels it explains my allergies being off the charts this fall.
Posted 12/17/2020 4:00 PM (GMT 0)
In light of my above mentioned headaches I dropped the natures bounty probiotic 10 (20 billion and has the 'saraeli' noted PBs that raise histamines) and the L-Lysine (which wasn't for lyme) 2 days ago. I kept with the scacchy probiotic and my vit D, C.

Guess what, the headaches are gone. When I had them nothing would knock them down. Now zip, nada, nothing.

I'm going to add the L-Lysine back in today just to rule out wasn't that causing the headaches.

Things that make you go Hmmm.
Posted 11/9/2022 2:29 AM (GMT 0)
I know this post is extremely old, but I came on here looking for info on probiotics. I need probiotics while on antibiotics. The only way probiotics are bad and shouldn't be taken is if you already had too much lactobacillus like me. I actually was tested and came back 99.9 % lactobacillus in my gut which the doctor said is way too much and can cause a lactobacillus infection and cause die off like feelings like gas, bloating, nausea and constipation and brain fog. I didn't know you can have "too much good bacteria " in the body and it can cause symptoms. Not neurotoxic though. They saved me from diareah and leaky gut after so many antibiotics use lol. My gut is still not recovered. Yeast and sibo can cause these awful symptoms. I had a yeast blood test which was negative but I was still peeing and pooping out yeast, sorry for the TMI. Wormwood tea proved I had a yeast issue. I came on this post to see if there's any good probiotics that actually made a difference for anyone's gut? I hate spending money like $30-$50 for a bottle of probiotics that make no change or no difference to how my gut feels.
Posted 11/9/2022 6:29 AM (GMT 0)
I wouldn't say it's the only way they are bad - if you have MCAS you need to be careful, as saraeli mentioned above. I can't take them because I have terrible reactions to them. So for me, it's not helpful and causes inflammation.

Maybe you could look into the megasporebiotic? I've heard mixed reviews on spore based probiotics but it could be worth a shot. Before I started reacting to probiotics, I also tried the HMF Genestra brand (they have at least one that is primarily bifidobacteria which would avoid the lactobacillus) and felt like they were good, but I had not been on antibiotics and tbh there's no way I can totally know if it helped. But two of my ND's recommended the brand.
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