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Flu like herx?

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Posted 1/27/2017 5:09 PM (GMT 0)
I woke up this morning feeling a little off in the head. Took my knotweed and immediately felt my energy get drained, dizzy and disoriented, chills, and overall I just feel... wrong. I know a lot of articles describe a herx as "flu like" but this has never been the case for me. I always get neuropathy flares, arthritis, myalgia, etc. just pain. I can't tell if I'm having a herx, being poisoned by knotweed, or actually have the flu. I've been on knotweed a month and this happened after a very very very tiny dose increase. confused Thoughts? Do you ever just spontaneously develop flu like symptoms after months of steady progress and very gradual dose increases? I don't know whether I should take another dose today or what
Posted 1/27/2017 5:28 PM (GMT 0)
This is truly a hard place to be! It's the right time of year for the flu, and yet we may be herxing.

I always start out by increasing my detoxing first, because if it IS a herx, I surely don't want it getting out of control! But, if in a few days that doesn't help, I realize it's the flu/cold that is going around.

I already take high dose vitamin C as part of my daily routine, but if you don't, consider increasing it slowly.

You can start on some natural antivirals or you can just build your immune system up more. Just so you know, either one has the potential to cause herxing, so it's your choice.
Posted 1/27/2017 5:32 PM (GMT 0)
I had roving symptoms that were quite varied. I was on the same dosage for over a month and no changes and I still would get varied symptoms.

It felt to me like lyme was trying desperately hard to find a place in my body to hide.

I just held with the program and did not change anything. No upping and no slacking either. Continued detoxing and eating healthy.

That is what I did.

Now for you.... go back down on the J/K to where you were feeling fine. Hang there for awhile, detox and no stress!!!! Baby yourself as if you were a sick child. Be gentle and kind to you.

If you can take a mental health day, do so. But do it without the stress or worry of having to do other things.

I swear 60% of my lyme symptoms were due to stress and worry. I could cause myself pain because of my mental thinking.
Posted 1/27/2017 7:52 PM (GMT 0)
I echo what PeteZa said.....sometimes I feel so badly I can't bring myself to take anything at all until it subsides, but I'm a wuss when it comes to being off my game.

Actually, I've learned to go take my temperature when I feel flulike, achy and everything you said.

Most of the time I AM running a low grade fever, and I realize the immune system has joined the fight, most likely, and is trying to cook the invader out. But sometimes there is no fever and I'm left wondering.

So, like PeteZa suggested, the option of choice is to cut back down, see how you feel the next 12-24 hours, and then take it from there.
Posted 1/27/2017 7:53 PM (GMT 0)
Unfortunately these symptoms are just too much. I have to back down and hope I don't have to go too far to find a place I can handle. I still haven't found a detox routine that works for me either :/ Maybe I just need to stick it through. JK fights flu too so I guess I just gotta find the most tolerable dose and push forward. Definitely one of the worst symptoms I've had and it's odd to me because I never had this symptom before treating
Posted 1/27/2017 9:07 PM (GMT 0)
I just took a third of my knotweed dose and am reacting to that... what happened?! Is all my progress lost??
Posted 1/27/2017 9:11 PM (GMT 0)

Psilociraptor said...
I just took a third of my knotweed dose and am reacting to that... what happened?! Is all my progress lost??

You tried. Stop taking it altogether for 24 hours and see how you feel.

This will let you know if it's the kw, or you have something else going on that makes you unable to tolerate the herb right now.

Good luck, and so sorry you're dealing with this.

I'd be devastated if the kw suddenly brought on that reaction in me.
Posted 1/27/2017 10:55 PM (GMT 0)
Whew. Well it was short lived that time. Waited an hour and took the other half of my dose without much issue. Still not where I was at but not as far back as I worried
Posted 1/27/2017 11:00 PM (GMT 0)
Honestly lyme symptoms can come and go and have no relation to what we have taken. It is just the nature of the beast.

I was on the same dose for a very long time and still I got varied and unusual symptoms. They were from out of left field and strange as heck.

There was no way it was a herx because I was the detox queen. And, I had not upped my herbs.

Just know that lyme is fighting hard to be in control of your body. Just stay the course and fight back doing all the right things.
Posted 1/27/2017 11:06 PM (GMT 0)

Psilociraptor said...
Whew. Well it was short lived that time. Waited an hour and took the other half of my dose without much issue. Still not where I was at but not as far back as I worried


That is a relief!


Always a learning curve with this thing. Sure keeps one on their toes.
Posted 1/28/2017 12:06 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah Pete this has only happened to me once before and it was in relation to Sida acuta. So it's definitely in relation to the killing. The really baffling part is that certain types of food are triggering it too. I was out at dinner with my gf for her birthday yesterday and got flu like halfway through the meal. I believe it was triggered by fruit juice. Almost like I got instant diabetes but last time this happened my bloodwork was normal aside from high IgM and TGF-B1

Ugh I still haven't climbed up to my max dose and I can feel the Lyme taking advantage. Going to try this morning and sip it slow. What a mess
Posted 1/28/2017 3:51 PM (GMT 0)
It could be either/or. It can be a herx, because lyme and co, causes a lot of the same inflammation as the flu virus. Or it could be the flu virus that you already had (remember there's no cure for the flu, so if you ever had it you still do) or a new flu virus. Or mono symptoms (which 90%+ of humans have).
Posted 1/28/2017 4:12 PM (GMT 0)
I never thought about influenza latency. That's interesting because the only time I had the "flu" was six months prior to Lyme. I can't remember but j think I actually tested positive for influenza. I also noticed the emergence of cold sores after taking knotweed that I haven't had since I was in middle school
Posted 1/28/2017 4:18 PM (GMT 0)

Psilociraptor said...
I never thought about influenza latency. That's interesting because the only time I had the "flu" was six months prior to Lyme. I can't remember but j think I actually tested positive for influenza. I also noticed the emergence of cold sores after taking knotweed that I haven't had since I was in middle school

Okay so you have the herpes 1 virus. Also no cure. What happens almost with every lymie is, lyme either lowers the immune system and/or over works the immune system, so other pathogens you already have become opportunistic and rear their heads again.

A lot of the time a "herx" is actually these other pathogens coming back out.
Posted 1/28/2017 4:19 PM (GMT 0)
I wonder if the sugar ingestion didn't set something up.

I never had a problem with sugar when I first got lyme. about a month or so into treatment I was at a celebration and ate some ice cream. Oh my gosh, it was like I gave myself food poisoning. The same thing happened to me with Pizza _ hence my moniker.

It was so sad to not have ice cream or pizza. I just recently tried having pizza and I made it! I haven't tried ice cream yet. I may go frozen yogurt as a test first.

So, foods can upset us, definitely.
Posted 1/28/2017 4:50 PM (GMT 0)
That's what i thought the first time because of my susceptibility to fruit juice. But really odd things were setting it off too like Salvia miltiorrhiza.

Agreed dacarte. And I've been wondering if that symptom is something other than Lyme. The food thing is just really perplexing and makes me hope it's not just organic damage. That's one of the exciting things about having lyme and treating it herbally though. Knowing at the end I'm going to kill off a whole lot of suckers (virus, fungi, bacteria) i never knew were there in the first place. Last time i tried treating i saw symptoms lifting that i didn't even know were symptoms. Things I had lived with so long i just assumed was normal. Brain fog disappearing that I thought was just from too many hallucinogens in college. Lol. I'm hopeful the best of my life is ahead of me if i can make it through this craziness. Herbs are pretty cool like that. Here's to another dose of knotweed and hoping it treats me well again. Back up to my max "safe" dose. Relapse subverted this morning without issue. Let's hope i stay on track.
Posted 1/28/2017 5:16 PM (GMT 0)
Fingers crossed for you Psilociraptor!!
Posted 1/28/2017 5:24 PM (GMT 0)

Psilociraptor said...
Yeah Pete this has only happened to me once before and it was in relation to Sida acuta. So it's definitely in relation to the killing. The really baffling part is that certain types of food are triggering it too. I was out at dinner with my gf for her birthday yesterday and got flu like halfway through the meal. I believe it was triggered by fruit juice. Almost like I got instant diabetes but last time this happened my bloodwork was normal aside from high IgM and TGF-B1

Ugh I still haven't climbed up to my max dose and I can feel the Lyme taking advantage. Going to try this morning and sip it slow. What a mess

A note on the quick reaction to the fruit juice - this is likely from yeast/fungal issues.

Cold sores are from the herpes viruses - you can use a prescription antiviral or you can use Lysine to help control EBV and other herpes viruses.
Posted 1/28/2017 5:40 PM (GMT 0)
I honestly think the viral thing was akin to a herx. It only popped up briefly as my dose increased and then disappeared. Knotweed is extensively antiviral. I have things from my past before Lyme (ear infections, UTI's, etc) popping up occasionally and disappearing as quickly as they came from the knotweed or other killing herbs. But who can say for sure if they're herxes or reactivations. They certainly aren't thriving so i lean towards the former.

I've thought about the fungal thing as well, but would that explain salvia having the same impact? I definitely plan to target fungi specifically down the road.

Anyways, midday dose of knotweed went very well. This is a serious relief!! I think the increases the past few days just primed me to overreact. I thought i was taking it pretty slow but i guess i need to go slower than slow from here on out :P 1/8s of tsp per day increase at a time lol.
Posted 1/28/2017 5:45 PM (GMT 0)
I so hate learning the hard way.

We certainly do learn our bodies and all their little idiosyncrasies.
Posted 1/28/2017 5:50 PM (GMT 0)
I would agree with you, since you only experience them short term.

I'm not sure what you mean by this: " but would that explain salvia having the same impact? " I do seem to be missing something this morning! LOL!

Oh, yeah! I'm another one that increases very, very slowly due to herxing! I've herxed enough, thank you very much!! LOL! Even on immune building/anti-viral things that I'm taking now, I'm titrating up at 1/8 tsp doses - and only one at a time! Call me chicken!! LOL! I'll even squawk like one!!! turn
Posted 1/28/2017 6:09 PM (GMT 0)
No I'm with you! Lol and j find the higher the dose the slower I have to increase. Like I'm moving up a bell curve where few ketes are impacted by the first tsp but then they start dying off dramatically at small incremental increases.

And what I mean is that I got the same reaction as the fruit juices to some herbs like salvia. It's not just fruits it's very odd seemingly unrelated foods/herbs. At least I haven't found the connection
Posted 1/28/2017 6:27 PM (GMT 0)
LOL! I have to admit to Lyme brain!!!! I thought I was reading saliva - not salvia!!!! Ha ha ha!!! blush Oh well. Sorry!

Keep looking for that connection - it will reveal itself to you eventually, you just may need to have less going on to 'see' it. That's what I've figured out about myself.

Buhner says that Salvia is "strongly protective (more so that skullcap root) of the Golgi structures of the cell, preventing fragmentation. (This alone will significantly reduce bacterial load.) The herb upregulates transforming growth factor-beta-1 (TGF-b1), which is a multifunctional cytokine, present in Golgi structures, and acts to protect them from fragmentation."

"The effects of the herb on neural cell Golgi structures is also profound, which makes the herb specific for neurological problems from the Lyme group of coinfections."

He says a LOT more too - LOL! A little over 2 pages worth in his "Healing Lyme" 2nd edition, pages 274 - 276 - if you have his book.
Posted 1/28/2017 6:44 PM (GMT 0)
Haha i have like 9 of his books. I'm in love. But thanks for the reference, i will go back and read on it. It's interesting he says that as it's also been shown to decrease TGF-B1 and it's one of the things i've used for that with success
Posted 1/30/2017 6:05 PM (GMT 0)
Ughhh so it's after me again... been maintaining my lower dose. Took one this morning and felt pretty good for a few hours. Then I started feeling off in the head. Went on a walk with my dogs and felt much worse. Decided to sleep it off. Now awake and it feels like someone wired my nervous system backwards. I have no idea what this is about but this has never been a symptom for me. I haven't taken any more doses and I feel like I've gotten worse today. I don't know how I'm supposed to get better if I just spontaneously get over sensitive to things I have been taking for over a month ughh
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