XYLITOL and other biofilms disruptors.

But, there is a time and place for biofilm busters. You sure don't want to go through what I mistakenly did - I simply wasn't prepared for what all I let loose from those biofilms - even though I was in treatment for Lyme and Bart at the time. That was miserable. LOL.

Excellent article too - thank you! It's now in my bookmarks.

I would say that it's very hard to find any articles on many of the subjects that we talk about that are actually all inclusive. I used cistus tea, and found it to be highly effective for me with biofilm busting, and it's not on the list either. We share articles a lot on here, but we still have to do our own research.

www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=29222

my first and second LLMD both recommend Xylitol. My first LLMD also added Laktoferrin. there are quite a few of them out there doing a search on this forum will turn up a bunch.

Monolaurin, brand name lauricidin but I prefer inspired nutrition brand because it has full spectrum MCT's and is a potent biofilm buster. It also has killing efficacy against all forms of borrelia in vitro. Better than doxy and most antibiotics. To supplement this with conventionals would be good. A bunch of recent studies shows that momolaurin kills Lyme fairly aggressively. However, in Vivo I.e the human body it is best to absorb sublingual which is disgusting and will make you want to throw up. I do it though and holy crap, for something that is in Breast milk it packs a punch and will cause tremendous herxes but only if you leave 1000+ grams under your tongue for 5-10mins, so as to let most of them dissolve, then take a chug of water and swallow the rest. This method ensures you get it straight into the blood stream, where when taken orally absorption is a lot less.

Be warned a Herx will come on abruptly and not only that but it will taste like throw up soap. If you can handle it go for it but DETOX AFTER!!

i've been taking pretty huge Stevia alcohol extract dosages (80+ drops a day) without any herxes or side effects. Also tried xylitol. I dont believe you can herx on these biofilm disruptors.

All the biofilm tests on these chems are done in vitro and there is wishful thinking to assume they work jolly well in vivo. Many things can go wrong: not absorbed through the gut, inactivated by digestion, absorbed but inactivated quickly by liver, not reaching certain tissues. Seriously, i found it is easy to fool myself with this "herxing" story. Sometimes people say it takes days until u herx, some other times it takes a few hrs, u just take the pill and u are herxing. Some say it still works but u are never herxing...

But now, even if u dont take anything, you will still suffer flare ups which are identical to herxes. So with this amount of variability and randomness of herx claims, no wonder everybody on this forum is herxing in any circumstances possible, and with any/all drugs possible.

My experience with herxing is this:
- high bacteria load in the blood - herxing starts IMMEDIATELY, 2-2.5h after oral drug ingestion. It lasts for 2h or so then it dissipates.
- high bacteria persisters in tissues - herxing is more something of an immune response, u kill a few pathogens, we know persisters are almost impossible to be killed, the immune system sees the debris and freaks out, starts an inflammatory reaction and you call it "herxing", but in reality you are not killing much and is very self limiting. Takes a few days for the immune system to get challenged, then about a week to calm down. Just like in any infection/flu.

This also explains why people on this forum continuously herx for years and years in cycles, makes very little sense to me, u cannot possibly have so much bacteria in you to cause massive killing every time u change something. Especially systemic herxes, so full body symptoms... these are autoimmune induced IMHO... A few bacteria killed, then massive response from the body...

By all means, please go ahead and throw rocks. I know this is a "difficult" topic here

i think there's truth to both what healrom and mpost are saying. one things for sure its very difficult to draw strong correlations between action and result.

Rikky1 said...
i think there's truth to both what healrom and mpost are saying. one things for sure its very difficult to draw strong correlations between action and result.

With the microscope it helps.
Sometimes it's hard to make correlation.But also sometimes, you take a thing and one hour after you have a strong herx. It depends of the situation, the product, etc...

www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1698&start=10

itsnotjustlyme.com/biofilm-myths-and-remedies/

Yes, it has been disapointing to me too.

And do you feel better now that you can tolerate such a dose?

I revived this because I felt it was important to add some info as it apparently gaining in popularity.

You shouldnt expect to feel anything from taking Xylitol. The fact that you do not is a good thing. It means you have less of a candida problem.

That doesnt mean it is not killing yeast and bacteria because it is. What ever loves sugar thinks it loves Xylitol but cant thrive on it.

If you do feel a herx from this you are extremely yeast filled (candidiasis) as I was at one time. The herx should not happen continuously and will get better over time.

I continue to take it and have built my tolerance to it. I love the fact that bacteria and yeast do not build a tolerance to it.

I put it in all my drinks now that I can tolerate a good amount. It makes lemon water taste good, so I dont feel the need to consume sugar at all.

But, there are times when I get super strong sugar cravings that have caught me off guard and I have given in. This is very unusual for me. Then I feel bad and kick myself and get back on track the next day.

I suspect these extremely strong cravings are when the last of a yeast or bacteria is about to die and this is a mechanism of theirs because the craving is unreal as I dont like extreme sweet and prefer less sugar when conscious.

But this type of craving makes me zombified and instead of brains I NEED sugar.

I have to make it through the next of these super mega crave to know if this may be the case. They hit out of the blue and its unlike me to cave, but I have ALWAYS caved in the past.

I should have the will power by now. I do not understand why this is difficult.

The next time I hope I will just reach for Xylitol or mannitol or anything other than sugar. But if I do have the sugar now I will send Xylitol in the mix right away. I thought for a while that maybe I am baiting it.

But if the Xylitol truly starves the bacteria the way the scientists who studied it say, then I shouldnt be feeding it any sugar. If I do I am likely negating the Xylitol.

I dont want half healthy bacteria and yeast hanging around. I want them weak. I do not find that it messes with my flora any more than any antibiotic would. I supplement probiotics first meal of the day, away from the Xylitol that I consume all day in small portions.


(start slow if you try, 1/4 tsp increments daily until you reach between 2-4 tsp)

Girlie said...
Chicken - LLMD JJ uses Xylitol with lactoferrin for Lyme biofilms - in conjunction with abx to treat Bb - so herxing doesn't necessarily mean Candida - it could be a Lyme herx.

Yes I imagine it could be.

What it did to me at first felt similar to a Nystatin Herx but only early on.

If you dont consume sugar but just take Xylitol many bacteria dont stand a fighting chance, but I am not sure it works in the brain. I would guess it doesnt end up there, but maybe at the higher doses I am doing if it can it may, but I doubt it. I think only the stuff that converts to glucose ends up in the blood, but what if we could get it in there safely?

I will mainline some tomorrow and see...


just kidding about the mainlining.

I do feel as if I have the Borellia in check as most all of my remaining recurring symptoms are all Bart related. It has been a while since a blatant Borellia symptom.

I just hope I didnt tempt fate with that statement.

Pirouette said...
Interesting discussion - I have a few comments.

First, ChickenArise -
Sounds like you're making really great progress. You're right to read into the cravings as yeast demanding food. xylitol isn't a cure-all for all yeast strains. So if you're not making progress with it, you might need to expand your antifungals.

Also - wanted to suggest busting biofilms more broadly, too - see below.

mpost -
I certainly respect your perspectives regarding herxing. But I also find it unrealistic to expect that just because you ingest antimicrobials, that you're reaching every pocket of a pretty complicated vessel. Certainly, you're aware of the complications of the varied forms of the Bb microbe and that its stealth properties help it evade whatever goes after it. Here's my biofilm experience:

Biofilms
I started my tx 3 yrs ago w/ herbal antimicrobials for Bb, bart and babs. I also incorporated IV abx 6 mos. later. I'm still on everything and was planning to go off them at the end of the year. But I started on Beyond Balance BFM-1 and busting biofilms released the cracken. I immediately experienced typical herxing for all 3 infections - generally all my old sx returned.

After a few wks, most of the herxing subsided - with the exception of sinusitis and bronchitis, which completely laid me out. I stopped the BFM-1 and then I'd do better after a few wks and restarted the BFM-1 and then I'd crash again w/ the bronchitis and sinusitis. Cycle repeated. It took about 3 mos to clear it before I could finally get to optimal doses of the BFM-1, which I've been on successfully now for 2 mos. w/out herxing.

The other thing the biofilm busting did was also revealed yeast/fungal pockets. When my sx were triggered after going on the BFM-1, I started taking the local and systemic antifungals again. Most of it cleared in about a week except for some lingering yeast/fungal sx, which required serious GI binders.

This wasn't an autoimmune response. It's entirely possible that some autoimmune response was triggered, as I think some psoriasis that I've never had before, which started about a year ago seemed to flare a little more than usual. It's an interesting theory, but is not likely what is going on with everyone in each case.

-p

Thanks for the well wishes, bringing mposts important insight to my attention, and for chiming in.

I feel there are several lessons to be learned from his approach and timing.

I do not subscribe to autoimmune disease theory outside of sepsis and the like or transplants.

The body doesnt attack itself. Infectious agents attack us. I have used to the term to refer to
the conditions that the medical community generalities are autoimmune diseases.

I do however believe that cytokine storms can be potentially triggered in the presence of certain adjuvants.

Xylitol isnt the end all be all but I do love what it is capable of. If I came across as if everyone should use it, that wasnt the intent.

I do think that it should be considered to be added to the possible arsenal if the conditions are correct.

Lets not forget that I am also on daily Fluconazole for close to a year now which is a helluva a lot stronger than Xylitol.

That said I have referred to Xylitol as the poor mans Fluconazole elsewhere (and now here by default)

Yes its a balancing act and it will not serve me well to take it long term, just as there is a point where remaining on an antimicrobial or antifungals will do more harm than good.

All I have is symptoms and symptom frequency from which I attempt to gauge progress made.

I dont know the overall feeling of wellness yet by any means. I feel as if I am breaking thru but that could all change tomorrow or with the next rotation of a planned med.

I can only gauge improvement right now by the lack of symptom. I am optimistic that I will be better by the end of the year, but one false step and I could fall off the face of the earth to be honest.

I just dont want people to give up on a potentially powerful tool if they have added it to their arsenal just because they cant feel it doing anything.

Ultimately you have to decide what is right for you based on the information presented to you or let someone 'qualified' do it for you.

I appreciate when I hear something is working for someone as that is a tool that may come in handy for me some day. It might blow up in my face but I will accept responsibility.

If I feel something is working well for me I feel an obligation to share. Maybe I got a bit too excited about it.

If I even came close to touting it as a end all for yeast, I would like the opportunity to retract that.

It is an amazing tool for me because it doesnt seem to be harming the bacteria I wish to retain, but I am doing resistant starch, veggie powders, and probiotics with it.

As with everything that we are using to bring us closer to a state of equilibrium and balance, future use risk may outweigh the reward.

There is improvement in the amount of inflammation. The lack of the headaches I used to get above my right eye. I dont attribute these gains to Xylitol.

There is likely a dimorphic fungi in my case that I am just keeping at bay with substances until I can let my immune system take over. Not there yet.

Its often two steps forward followed by one step back.

Its my goal to pay close attention to that one step back, its frequency, and consider the possibilities.

Is it a side effect of a medication? Is it a yeast symtpom, or a bart symptom, or borellia, et al.

By most persons standards what I am doing is down right completely insane playing doctor on myself and it gets even better than this.

I am surprised and pleased that you guys havent given me much flack for this, nor do you give me empty encouragement.

I often think out loud with you guys, so you can keep me in check. I encourage it and learn from it.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel but honestly I can barely make out if its daylight or the headlight of a train just yet.

Will I through the use of anthelmintic rotation reduce the duration of abx needed? Dunno. I hope so.

Will I be able to restore the flora when I think I am close and avoid Bb rearing its stealthiness? Will my liver survive it all, I dunno but I gotta try.

With all the meds I am on I appreciate anything natural that can help in any way. I never intended to be on this many meds this long and the Bart drugs are on the way.

Do I think Borellia is still hiding in my brain, yes I do. The headaches are fewer and farther apart but my body is signaling to me that its still there.

If you think Bb is stealthy read Buhner on Bartonella. It makes Bb look like crayons.

It was almost depressing reading the plethora of forms and defenses Bart has and how it adapts to attempts to eradicate it.

But I also believe these microbes were there before and my immune system kept the population controlled before the environmental disruption known as mold.

We are all tweaking the balance with everything we add or subtract from our protocols. Its all dynamic, nothing is a constant or veritas.

The most important goal for me and I think for all of us is to get to the point where the immune system and the friendly microbes which support it can take over for the drugs or herbs.

Plus if I am going to dare bust up biofilms, I think I want to do this while I am using Augmentin, Tinidazole, Doxy, and Biaxin?

Now, I know four abx is conventionally considered to be too much and I am going to drop the Tini. Tomorrow is my last day.

I gotta put the breaks on these meds at the right time which would likely be different from anyone elses right time.

The brakes have to go on the Xylitol at the right time also.

Timing is everything.

If I dont rebuild the supporting flora along the way, I wont make my goal which is to celebrate with the expensive Bravo probiotics and never touch a pill again.

I am trusting my intuition, and my biofeedback interpretations as that is all I can do.

I get a little excited about things but in the context that its a useful tool for a period of time for some.

In no way am I saying everyone should use it or bust up biofilms.

Buhner warns against it and he is a hell of a lot more knowledgeable than I.

mpost is living proof of the risks and we should all heed his experience.

I never wanted to be on any abx. I wanted IV ozone to work. I wanted to only to use probiotics, anthelmintics for a short while.

Then the lungs got real bad and the game plan had to be adjusted. they are 95% but some times I still feel that Ive got a small frog in my chest that comes and goes. Been on it Biaxin for this since march.

I always said I hope there isnt a huge consequence to all these abx but looks like I am in it for the long haul.

Im either going to come out of this thriving or paint myself into a corner.

Im hoping for the former and sharing as I go that's all.

Your journey will be much different than mine or anyone else's and mileage will vary. Any insight we can offer each other along the way I welcome it.

If its not what I want to hear, then I probably need to hear it all the more, so thanks.

As always I appreciate the dialogue. I love you all like family.