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Posted 5/18/2017 8:18 PM (GMT 0)
Hi all, thanks in advance for your help. I've spent a few hours browsing this forum and appreciate the advice given here and sympathize with many of the chronic sufferers.

Last weekend I was camping in PA and found a tick embedded on my right arm. I did not save the tick, but I think it was an adult deer tick. I suspect that it was there for a very short time (<5 hours) for a few reasons: 1) I found it around 8AM and did a thorough tick check the previous night before bed; 2) it was not engorged; and 3) the reason I found it was because I felt a slight pain/bite on my arm and rolled up my sleeves to check it out.

The same day, I called a Teledoc service associated with my work and obtained a 10-day 100MG, 2x-day doxy course which I began that the next day. I'm on day 4 of the course and have not noticed anything abnormal from either the bite or doxy.

My question is: Is that length of treatment combined with close observation post-treatment enough? Should I be doing more? This is luckily my first tick and I really want to nip this in the bud.
Posted 5/18/2017 8:43 PM (GMT 0)
I recommend taking Astragalus Root 3000mg per day for 30 days, then reduce to 1000mg per day if no issues and it will help prevent future infections.

The doxy is not strong enough of a dose to do much except maybe put the infection (if present) dormant for a spell. You should be on 400mg per day, but even that will do nothing for co-infections that are passed in the same bite.

I took the same dose that they gave you for 30 days after my tick bite and confirmed EM rash, but had no sx so I was declared "cured". 3 years later I was chronic and been fighting it for over 7 years. Got bit last month and all the urgent care would do was give me one (1) 200mg capsule with a glass of water and no script. I wen to just make sure the would was clean and we got the whole head out. I bit my tongue at their wait and see treatment plan

Watch for a bullseye rash at the bite site or anywhere else on your body. Other will have more advise.

welcome to our site

Post Edited (tickbite666) : 5/18/2017 2:47:52 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/18/2017 8:56 PM (GMT 0)

tickbite666 said...
The doxy is not strong enough of a dose to do much except maybe put the infection (if present) dormant for a spell. You should be on 400mg per day, but even that will do nothing for co-infections that are passed in the same bite.

I took the same dose that they gave you for 30 days after my tick bite and confirmed EM rash, but had no sx so I was declared "cured". 3 years later I was chronic and been fighting it for over 7 years. Got bit last month and all the urgent care would do was give me one (1) 200mg capsule with a glass of water and no script. I wen to just make sure the would was clean and we got the whole head out. I bit my tongue at their wait and see treatment plan

Thanks for your reply.

Aren't our situations a little different? My treatment fits strongly into the "prophylactic" category, whereas you began treatment after EM rash was present. Is my lower dose treatment sufficient given the early detection and perscription?

Post Edited (mr7183) : 5/18/2017 3:01:23 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/18/2017 8:57 PM (GMT 0)
Hello and welcome! We are glad you found us!

Tickbite had given you some good information.

When you have a chance, check out the New To Lyme thread at the top of the forum.

Let us know if you need help finding a Lyme literate doctor..
Posted 5/18/2017 9:01 PM (GMT 0)

mr7183 said...

tickbite666 said...
The doxy is not strong enough of a dose to do much except maybe put the infection (if present) dormant for a spell. You should be on 400mg per day, but even that will do nothing for co-infections that are passed in the same bite.

I took the same dose that they gave you for 30 days after my tick bite and confirmed EM rash, but had no sx so I was declared "cured". 3 years later I was chronic and been fighting it for over 7 years. Got bit last month and all the urgent care would do was give me one (1) 200mg capsule with a glass of water and no script. I wen to just make sure the would was clean and we got the whole head out. I bit my tongue at their wait and see treatment plan

Thanks for your reply.

Aren't our situations a little different? My treatment fits strongly into the "prophylactic" category, whereas you began treatment after EM rash was present. Is my lower dose treatment sufficient given the early detection and subscription?

If you are infected, and undertreat you will give the infection the opportunity to take hold and even go into cyst form, where it is more difficult to eradicate.

Aggressive is better, yes we are all different but this is the same for new infections.
Posted 5/18/2017 9:15 PM (GMT 0)
Hi mr7183 - welcome to our community!

Per Dr. Burrascano's Lyme Treatment Guidelines - for an embedded tick bite and no other symptoms (including NOT having the EM rash) - 28 days of treatment.

Doxy - 200 mg twice daily.

IF you do get symptoms (BTW - the EM rash IS a symptom) - then you need to continue to treat until symptom free plus 4-8 weeks)
Posted 5/18/2017 9:18 PM (GMT 0)

mr7183 said...

tickbite666 said...
The doxy is not strong enough of a dose to do much except maybe put the infection (if present) dormant for a spell. You should be on 400mg per day, but even that will do nothing for co-infections that are passed in the same bite.

I took the same dose that they gave you for 30 days after my tick bite and confirmed EM rash, but had no sx so I was declared "cured". 3 years later I was chronic and been fighting it for over 7 years. Got bit last month and all the urgent care would do was give me one (1) 200mg capsule with a glass of water and no script. I wen to just make sure the would was clean and we got the whole head out. I bit my tongue at their wait and see treatment plan

Thanks for your reply.

Aren't our situations a little different? My treatment fits strongly into the "prophylactic" category, whereas you began treatment after EM rash was present. Is my lower dose treatment sufficient given the early detection and perscription?


Yes - you are in a different 'category' since you didn't have any symptoms.
The difference is you treat for 28 days.

BUT - if you develop symptoms...(this includes an EM rash) - then you must treat until symptom free PLUS an additional 4-8 weeks.
Posted 5/18/2017 9:20 PM (GMT 0)

tickbite666 said...


I took the same dose that they gave you for 30 days after my tick bite and confirmed EM rash, but had no sx so I was declared "cured".

The EM rash IS a symptom...


Was your rash gone after the 30 days? you didn't treat for another month AFTER the rash left.

So if the rash was gone at 30 days(for example) into the treatment - you still would have needed another 30 days...so total of two months treatment.
Posted 5/18/2017 9:24 PM (GMT 0)
mr7183 - I hope you can get some more doxy...and treat it adequately...higher dose and longer...you do not want this to go chronic.
Posted 5/18/2017 9:53 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
mr7183 - I hope you can get some more doxy...and treat it adequately...higher dose and longer...you do not want this to go chronic.

So are the below points generally regarded as BS on this forum?:

1. Transmission of Lyme disease is rare before 36 hours of attachment, and generally occurs only when ticks have been feeding for two to three days. Ticks that are removed before they are engorged virtually never transmit Lyme disease.

2. A deer tick from a Lyme-endemic area that is engorged will transmit Lyme disease about 10% of the time.

3. An approach to Lyme disease prevention may include a single 200mg doxycycline dose after removal of an engorged deer tick, if you are in a region where there is known to be Lyme disease.
Posted 5/18/2017 10:10 PM (GMT 0)
1. There is no amount of time required before the tick has passed on the bacteria.

Definitely not rare if attached for less than 36 hours.


2. They don't have to be engorged. If it's removed improperly - chances of infection passing on is greater.
i don't know where that statistic came from (engorged tick will transmit 10% of the time)

3. Nope - a single dose of doxy is pretty much useless.


The recent campaign is : Get it Right...Treat the Bite.

It's simple - a tick can pass on lyme disease if it bites you...period. Don't assume otherwise.
Don't risk this becoming a chronic lyme infection...you will regret not treating the bite.
Posted 5/19/2017 12:10 AM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
Per Dr. Burrascano's Lyme Treatment Guidelines - for an embedded tick bite and no other symptoms (including NOT having the EM rash) - 28 days of treatment.

Doxy - 200 mg twice daily.

IF you do get symptoms (BTW - the EM rash IS a symptom) - then you need to continue to treat until symptom free plus 4-8 weeks)

OK last question - I read this paper and thank you for guiding me towards Dr. Burrascano.

Are those guidelines the opinion of one (well respected) doctor? A better way to phrase what I am asking: Say I am able to convince my doctor to increase to a 3-week, 100mg, 2x-day prophylactic plan. Is this proven to be an ineffective course?
Posted 5/19/2017 1:09 AM (GMT 0)
Joseph J. Burrascano Jr. MD is a well recognized specialist in the diagnosis and treatment of Lyme and associated complex infectious diseases, and the chronic illnesses that accompany them. With over two decades of experience and research in this field, he has appeared in and on virtually every form of media, has advised the CDC and NIH, testified before the U.S. Senate, an armed services joint subcommittee, and at various governor's councils. A founding member of ILADS, he currently is an active Board Member of the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Educational Foundation.


www.ilads.org/media/videos/videos_burrascano.php

He is well-respected in the "Lyme" world, yes.


"Say I am able to convince my doctor to increase to a 3-week, 100mg, 2x-day prophylactic plan. Is this proven to be an ineffective course?"

You might be lucky - and the tick didn't have the Bb bacteria. If it did transmit the bacteria, then 100 mg twice isn't the protocol according to the guidelines - which have been compiled based on experience treating tick bites.

It should be 200 mg twice daily for 28 days.
Posted 5/19/2017 1:14 AM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
Joseph J. Burrascano Jr. MD is a well recognized specialist in the diagnosis and treatment of Lyme and associated complex infectious diseases, and the chronic illnesses that accompany them. With over two decades of experience and research in this field, he has appeared in and on virtually every form of media, has advised the CDC and NIH, testified before the U.S. Senate, an armed services joint subcommittee, and at various governor's councils. A founding member of ILADS, he currently is an active Board Member of the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Educational Foundation.


www.ilads.org/media/videos/videos_burrascano.php

He is well-respected in the "Lyme" world, yes.


"Say I am able to convince my doctor to increase to a 3-week, 100mg, 2x-day prophylactic plan. Is this proven to be an ineffective course?"

You might be lucky - and the tick didn't have the Bb bacteria. If it did transmit the bacteria, then 100 mg twice isn't the protocol according to the guidelines - which have been compiled based on experience treating tick bites.

It should be 200 mg twice daily for 28 days.

Thanks -- to be clear, I wasn't questioning the credentials of Dr. Burrascano. I was wondering on the conclusiveness of one treatment plan vs. the other.
Posted 5/19/2017 1:50 AM (GMT 0)

mr7183 said...

Girlie said...
mr7183 - I hope you can get some more doxy...and treat it adequately...higher dose and longer...you do not want this to go chronic.

So are the below points generally regarded as BS on this forum?:

1. Transmission of Lyme disease is rare before 36 hours of attachment, and generally occurs only when ticks have been feeding for two to three days. Ticks that are removed before they are engorged virtually never transmit Lyme disease.

2. A deer tick from a Lyme-endemic area that is engorged will transmit Lyme disease about 10% of the time.

3. An approach to Lyme disease prevention may include a single 200mg doxycycline dose after removal of an engorged deer tick, if you are in a region where there is known to be Lyme disease.

We can't state strongly enough how utterly outrageously incorrect those statements are.

I believe I can also speak for most of us and say if we only knew then what we know now the last 1, 2, 3, 4 and more years of our lives would have been drastically different and oh so much better. We also wouldn't have needed to spend more money than any of us really had towards regaining a semblance of a normal existence. I'm not saying any of this to scare you. Not my style. Just to protect you from becoming one of us.

Imo this is one of the better main stream Lyme articles. www.menshealth.com/health/scary-truth-about-lyme-disease
Posted 5/19/2017 1:06 PM (GMT 0)
Just to clarify.. My first bite with EM Rash was back in 2005 and I thought I was lucky to catch it early and treated for 30 days. There wasn't a lot of info back then like we have today.

My recent bite this past April was sad that local MD knowledge and treatment has not progressed and in my case was less that I received twelve years ago. Fortunately with this second bite I was one week into by Ceftin/Bactrim 2 week pulse and also taking Astragalus, Cat's Claw, JK, Hout, Takuna, Lomatium, GSE, L-Lysine, and Colloidal Silver daily.

I kind of chuckle now on how in the hell did that tick even try to feed on my blood and should have died on the spot.
Posted 5/19/2017 1:09 PM (GMT 0)
I wasn't able increase to 28-day, 400mg treatment, but did convince my doctor to go 21-days @ 200mg. I also ordered some Astragalus as you suggested. I'm going to keep a close watch on it... Hopefully that plan works out for me.

Keep in mind this is for a recent bite (<5 hours) with no rash or symptoms.
Posted 5/19/2017 1:28 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Mr,
You have received good information on how to proceed. These articles may be of more help to understand the differences in treatment approaches. We follow ILADS because most of us have been "burned" by IDSA treatment guidelines in one way or another:

ILADS vs IDSA:
www.clinicaladvisor.com/controversy-continues-to-fuel-the-lyme-war/article/117160/

archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=226373

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2901226/​
Posted 5/19/2017 1:34 PM (GMT 0)
It took a week for my EM to develop and some say less that only about 50% of people with Lyme develop this unique rash.

As far as duration of the tick bite... How many diseases can be transmitted from a 2 second mosquito bite?

Other than the initial EM rash I had no sx develop until 3 years later.

I'm not surprised that your MD would not increase dosage, but at least you now have more doxy. Is there any way to get another script filled from another MD or Urgent Care. I would suggest that you double your dose ASAP and see if you can order some more online from Canada. You may have to pay out of pocket because Health Coverage does monitor double dipping and ordering refills too early.

godspeed mr7183
Posted 5/19/2017 1:49 PM (GMT 0)
The thing is, the tick will have some bacteria in their mouth, and when 'dislodged' will usually spill some of those contents into our body. So the bacteria gets in us, it's all about how strong the immune system is to attack it and contain it.

If this bacteria is not destroyed in the earliest of stages (the first couple of weeks), it goes into 'hiding' and will re-emerge when the immune systems is lowered (during any kind of stress on the body) and will begin to reproduce while the immune system is compromised, creating the dreaded chronic version of these infections. We see all too many here in this situation, because many doctors everywhere have no clue how to diagnose or treat even the early stages of these infections.

I promise, we are only trying to keep you from "needing" us for chronic Lyme. We WANT you to heal and heal well so that this only becomes a distant memory, instead of a many months/years journey to reach some sort of health/healing.
Posted 5/19/2017 2:05 PM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...
The thing is, the tick will have some bacteria in their mouth, and when 'dislodged' will usually spill some of those contents into our body. So the bacteria gets in us, it's all about how strong the immune system is to attack it and contain it.

If this bacteria is not destroyed in the earliest of stages (the first couple of weeks), it goes into 'hiding' and will re-emerge when the immune systems is lowered (during any kind of stress on the body) and will begin to reproduce while the immune system is compromised, creating the dreaded chronic version of these infections. We see all too many here in this situation, because many doctors everywhere have no clue how to diagnose or treat even the early stages of these infections.

I promise, we are only trying to keep you from "needing" us for chronic Lyme. We WANT you to heal and heal well so that this only becomes a distant memory, instead of a many months/years journey to reach some sort of health/healing.

Yeah - I completely understand where you guys are coming from and really do appreciate all of the insight here.

I'm on board with the accepted notion that an aggressive treatment is best. What I was trying to get at was understanding the conclusiveness of research regarding one treatment plan vs. the other. I say this because I read the ILADS report and 21 days at 100MG does fall into the recommended window of treatment for a bite with no symptoms (albeit on the low end).

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/14787210.2014.940900 (see the chart at the bottom comparing ILADS vs. IDSA)

So what I'm trying to understand is if there is evidence to suggest that what I am doing now is ineffective, or are you advocating for a more aggressive plan not necessarily out of conclusive necessity but because "aggressive is always better" and you all know the very real effects of chronic Lyme.

Post Edited (mr7183) : 5/19/2017 8:09:08 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/19/2017 2:38 PM (GMT 0)
At the bottom of that chart, you will see the words "management of Eythema Migrans" and it's a comparison of ILADS and IDSA treatments.

That article covers only 2 things - early treatment with single dose Doxy, and the retreatment of those with symptoms.

To find what to follow with a tick bite without symptoms, I would suggest that you read Dr. Burrascano's treatment guidelines. He was the President of ILADS for a time.
www.ilads.org/lyme/B_guidelines_12_17_08.pdf

It's hard to summarize this document without just repeating what has already been said - 28 days of therapy with 200 mgs of Doxy, and up to 600 mgs daily. We still have those that have received 400 mgs daily that still develop symptoms, but that is the minimum.
Posted 5/19/2017 5:06 PM (GMT 0)
The ILADS Guidelines do have a link to Dr. Burrascano's Treatment Guidelines.

Here's the link - scroll down and near the bottom of the page you'll see a link to them.

www.ilads.org/lyme/treatment-guideline.php
Posted 5/19/2017 5:49 PM (GMT 0)
The CDC and IDSA have done an exemplary job at obfuscating and minimizing the truth that Lyme & co-infections are a seriously debilitating GROUP of illnesses and are approaching epidemic proportions. Added to the antiquated medical educational model that only one illness can be infected at a time (how THAT was ever accepted is incredible) so that the linear model precludes most physicians even considering what is a necessary treatment protocol. Many, many people don't want to believe the facts. The idea that a tiny bug, something that many people have been picking off of themselves for years - some attached - without having any consequence can suddenly turn into a life altering event is indeed difficult to accept.

Until it happens. The nature of Lyme and co is to be as stealthy as possible until the pathogen is securely in place. After that, it is in control. True, 70% of the people are in fact cured with a short dose of antibiotics. For the other 30% the rest of their lives are spent in a miserable hell.

It is far easier to be aggressive early and avoid the consequences of accepting the government's lie.

If "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you" doesn't strike fear into your heart, you haven't been paying attention.
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