Antibiotics: Why or Why Not?

Hello,

Over several months, I've read lots of posts on this forum -- many of them old posts -- and am curious about one thing in particular:

Why do some people choose to use antibiotics?

If that seems like a silly question, please forgive my lack of understanding.

The reason I ask the question is I've read many posts where people would say something along the lines of "If only I'd known then what I know now, I would never have chosen antibiotics."

Others have shared the profound havoc that antibiotics have wreaked on their digestive systems.

There's also the folks that state they've been on antibiotics -- often multiple ones -- for years and years. They seem to get some limited benefits, but if they stop the antibiotic use, they sometimes regress.

I've also watched lectures by Dr. Thomas Rau of the Paracelsus Clinic talk about how "The bacteria are not the cause, but the expression of the problem." and "It's not the bacteria, but the milieu, which enables the disease." Now, those are two soundbites from a 1h 22m lecture, so, of course, he says much, much more.

These points, in part, are why I ask the question.

I welcome any education you might be inclined to provide.

Many thanks,
The Dude

Hi The Dude Abides - welcome!


In my 'neck of the woods' - I know several people who have been in remission using the antibiotic route...but none doing herbals...or other alternative treatments.

I do 'know' people on this forum who have healed with herbals as their main protocol...and I also 'know' people on here who have healed with antibiotics....and then others who used both to heal.

I don't think there is a 'right' way.

Why did I choose antibiotics? I don't know really - while waiting for the diagnosis, I did do Buhner's herbs for lyme for a couple of months...I didn't have a reaction - no improvement or herxing.
Then I got my diagnosis...and just went with the antibiotic route.
I really thought I would be well within a year.

I did add the herbals back in for several months...but found it to be too much to take with the antibiotics.


So Dude - do you have lyme disease?

Thank you, Pirouette and Girlie, for the thorough and lightning fast response. I've been exceptionally impressed with the responses you and the other veteran members post. The time, detail, and care that goes into replies is staggering. And, it's all free and from the heart. What amazing gifts.

As for whether I have Lyme Disease...

I would say: "I don't know for sure, but probably."

I was bitten by a tick in late 2014, removed and saved the tick, and sent to LabCorp for analysis. It was found to be positive for B. burgdorferi, but I never got the EM rash. Unfortunately, at the time, I didn't know enough to send the tick to a different lab to check for other infections. I was on my own, because my 'conventional' doctor said not to worry about anything -- the tick, the bite, Lyme Disease, etc. He said it probably wasn't a deer tick, and, even if it was, it probably wasn't infected.

(I know, I know... Let's not get started, right?)

Luckily, I called a Functional Medicine doctor and they suggested starting Doxy the same day - which I did. I don't recall the dosage, but I think I took it for 10 days. I had a two week break, visited an Integrative doctor, and he wrote me 15 more days of Doxy.

I've not been tested through IGeneX or any specialty labs, but I had a regular Western Blot through my new 'conventional' doctor (I fired the last jack@$$) that seemed to show negative...not surprisingly.

Here's just a few results from the 150+ pages of labs from LabCorp, MDL, Quest, Diagnos-Techs, Pharmasan Labs, Cyrex, Genova, Doctor's Data, etc.

January 2015

TESTS...............................RESULT.......FLAG
Abs.CD8-CD57+ Lymphs.......51.............Low
WBC..................................4.0
EBV Early Antigen Ab, IgG.....20.2..........High
EBV Ab VCA, IgG.................>600.........High
Chlamydia pneumoniae IgM...1:40 (Not listed as high, but Negative was <=1:10)
M pneumoniae IgG Abs.........692..............High


June 2015

Ordered Items: Lyme, Western Blot, Serum; Ehrlichia, Ab Panel; Rocky Mtn Spotted Fev, IgG, Qn

TESTS.................RESULT.......FLAG
IgG p41 Ab..........Present.......Abnormal
IgG p18 Ab..........Present.......Abnormal
RMSF, IgG, EIA....Equivocal


November 2015

Ordered Items: HNK1 (CD57) Panel; Lyme, Western Blot, Serum; Comp. Metabolic Panel (14); Iron and TIBC; Manganese, Plasma and RBC; Immunoglobulins A/G/M, Qn, Ser; Testosterone,F/WklyBd+T LC/MS; Chlamydia pneumoniae(IgG/M); Carnitine, Total and Free; Lyme Ab/Western Blot Reflex; WA1 IgG Antibody, IFA; Thyroxine (T4) Free, Direct, S; DHEA-Sulfate; Cortisol; TSH; Complement C4a; Cytomegalovirus (CMV) Ab, IgG; C6 B. burgdorferi (Lyme); Zinc, RBC; Reverse T3, Serum; Calcitriol(1,25 di-OH Vit D); Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy; C-Reactive Protein, Cardiac; Human Herpes Virus Type 6 IgM; Estradiol, Sensitive; HHV 6 IgG Antibodies; Mycoplasma pneumoniae, IgM Ab; Mycoplasma pneumoniae, IgG Ab; Sedimentation Rate-Westergren; Estrone, Serum; Ferritin, Serum; Ammonia, Plasma; Triiodothyronine,Free,Serum; Magnesium, RBC

TESTS...............................RESULT.......FLAG
Abs.CD8-CD57+ Lymphs.......85
WBC..................................4.3
IgG p41 Ab.........................Present.......Abnormal
IgG p18 Ab.........................Present.......Abnormal
IgM P23 Ab.........................Present.......Abnormal
Chlamydia pneumoniae IgG...1:128..........High
Chlamydia pneumoniae IgM...1:80............High
HHV 6 IgG Antibodies...........11.14...........High
M pneumoniae IgG Abs.........900..............High


December 2015

Chlamydia pneumoniae IgG...1:128..........High
M pneumoniae IgG Abs.........769.............High


March 2016

Test.............................................................Abnormal...................Reference
Human herpesvirus-6 (HHV-6) IgG by ELISA.......IgG Pos (ODR=6.78)....Pos: >= 1.11
Herpes simplex virus 1 (HSV-1) IgG by ELISA.....IgG Pos (Index=6.10)..Pos: >= 1.10
Herpes simplex virus 2 (HSV-2) IgG by ELISA.....IgG Pos (Index=2.72)..Pos: >= 1.10
Mycoplasma pneumoniae IgG / IgM by ELISA......IgG Pos (Index=3.42)..Pos: >= 1.10

Borrelia B31 + OspA/B IgM ViraStripe IgM
Bands, kD......................41....39....34....31....23
Intensity, % of Cut-Off....041..030....--....--.....--

TESTS...............................RESULT.......FLAG
Abs.CD8-CD57+ Lymphs.......57..............Low
WBC..................................3.9

MTHFR, DNA Analysis...........C677T Single Mutation


July 2016

TESTS...............................RESULT.......FLAG
Carbon Monoxide, Blood.......2.7.............High
Parvovirus B19, IgG............5.3.............High
Carbon Monoxide, Blood.......2.3.............High
M pneumoniae IgG Abs.........971............High
Carbon Monoxide, Blood.......2.6.............High
Parvovirus B19, IgG............7.1.............High


So, do I have Lyme? I'm not sure. But, I do seem to be battling some infections.

Oh, a recent stool test showed positive for C. Diff. Toxin B.

I'm not currently taking any herbs or antibiotics. My last antibiotics was over two years ago.

I started getting sick about 15 months before the tick bite. And, really, some of my fatigue and sleep issues go back to 2003. I have a cough that comes-and-goes and has done so for about two years. about four months after the tick bite, I was having wandering joint/muscle aches and pains, brain fog, poor memory, tremors, anxiety, dizziness, rapid heart beat, air hunger, blurry vision, etc. I went on Dr. Rawls' "Restore Program" for about four months. I was improving, but, foolishly, stopped the protocol. I didn't try it again until a year later, but, at that point, I felt it was too late. I took it for about four months with no obvious improvement.

I'm a mess, physically, mentally, and emotionally. I know many of you can relate.

For anyone that's made it this far, I thank you for the interest. Get yourself some Visine and put it on my tab.

The Dude Abides

Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 1/12/2021 4:11:56 AM (GMT-7)

Girlie, thanks so much for your feedback. I sorta suspected some of that, but guess I really didn't want to think so.

(Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.)

Do you feel the Chlamydia Pneumoniae and Mycoplasma Pneumoniae are due to the super-high IgG values? That's what I thought, but the doctor said IgG means a prior infection and not currently active. I told him that Dr. Horowitz stated that IgG values that are 2-3 times (or more) the High/Positive range should be considered a possible reactivation.

Thanks again.

Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 5/25/2017 9:08:46 PM (GMT-6)

Hi Dude,

I'm going the hybrid route. Started off with abx, but got frustrated with some of the side effects about four months in. I was also having yeast issues, so I swore them off for a bit. At that time, I started doing Buhner's herbs and following the protocol in his book.

I plan to do the herbs for a year, which is how long he feels it takes to recover from Lyme. I know a lot of people have great success with the herbs, but I guess, to hedge my bet, I started the abx again a few months ago. Hence, the hybrid approach. My thought is that even if the herbals don't cure me (maybe they would?), they are hopefully offering other support (immune, etc.) that perhaps in conjunction with the abx will do the trick. Not sure, but here's hoping!

I hope you can find a treatment plan soon, so you can start feeling better.

Girlie said...

Bands, kD......................41....39....34....31....23

So those were the positive bands on the March/2016 test?

Well, the formatting was goofy on that MDL test from March 2016. Here's an image of that specific part. In looking at it again, I don't think any of them are positive:

=====> bit.ly/2s1q93U <=====

Thanks for your thoughtful feedback, Girlie.

Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 5/25/2017 9:54:29 PM (GMT-6)

I used a stupid amount of antibiotics and inundated myself over a 7 month period. I will no longer use them as I do not believe in chronic lyme being an active infection, and now my journey to recovery is to rebuild my immune system, try and encourage reversal of tissue and nerve damage, and maintain a positive attitude.

Lymepilot said...
I used a stupid amount of antibiotics and inundated myself over a 7 month period. I will no longer use them as I do not believe in chronic lyme being an active infection, and now my journey to recovery is to rebuild my immune system, try and encourage reversal of tissue and nerve damage, and maintain a positive attitude.

Lymepilot: Thank you for your perspective. I share some of your sentiments, which is why I was trying to be careful in how I asked my initial question. I realize everyone is different -- with different challenges -- and there's no one path to healing. So, I honor each person's choices.

That said, I do worry about the long-term effects of antibiotics. But, I suppose I have to balance that concern with the long-term effects of doing herbs or doing nothing. I've read that even a single course of antibiotics can cause a disturbance to the intestinal tract that can last up to two years. I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me. I think of them like an H-bomb...they destroy nearly everything.

Anyway, I do wish you luck in rebuilding your body systems. I hope to read some good progress reports from you.

Best wishes,
The Dude

Woooobuddy.... you are a Petrie dish. ;)

I was too when I first started. My guess is you've been battling the viral load for awhile - those are all common viruses and they can challenge your body no matter what, or as Girlie suggested they can get reactivated when the immune system is off fighting other battles.

So regardless of your tick-born infections and other bacterial infections please start on some antivirals asap. You need to get those titers down asap snd I bet you'll start feeling a little better - several sx overlap w/ Lyme & co and other infections.

Second, the c diff needs to be treated before you're going to make any progress with antimicrobials. Not sure if you've tried anything so far but I know oral vancomycin is effective.

And as G mentioned it looks like you have the other pneumonia strains - likely from being run down. I'm not sure if they require abx but I'm not aware of any herbal tx and I know abx are effective. It again, the c diff will limit any abx use. I wouldn't use herbal antimicrobials either until he c diff is addressed.

Your GI health is key - that's where 70% of your immune system lies and it is a critical component of tx and the c diff compromises it.

And - the Lyme is there too. I feel most people have it - some of us present with infection. The IgG vs IgM old vs new infection doesn't really apply for Lyme as Bb disrupts normal immune function. It's more relevant to go by the bands...if you have a reliable immune response in the first place.

Hope his is helpful -

-p

Post Edited (Pirouette) : 5/26/2017 2:07:49 PM (GMT-6)

I wanted to ask you about the C-Difficile. Is it safe to assume you had symptoms (diarrhea) which prompted the testing?

I read that many people have the C-Difficile bacteria in their guts - but if we don't develop symptoms..then it shouldn't be treated. But, if you were tested...I'm thinking it's because you were having the diarrhea...

bluelyme said...
if the spirochetes i view in my red and white blood cells are not a active infection the fug it "i'm going bowling"

I am using bvt ,rife and herbs with antibiotics and antiparasiticals ..

if you can cure your cdiff with natural means then you can have a white russian and a new robe on my tab

bluelyme, you mad genius! I see what you did there...I'm laughing aloud! Thanks for improving my mood! Don't let Woo pee on your rug...

Hi The Dude Abides!!! (LOVE the name!)

Welcome to our community! I'm so glad you found us.

I'm one of those that had a horrible experience with abx and turned to herbals - healed once (very well), got reinfected (yep, was in denial ) and am back in treatment.

Just to throw this out there - I didn't test fully CDC positive until after I had a full year of pharma abx, but I was too sick to continue with them (seizures, blacking out, severe anxiety, and more).

I do agree that you almost certainly have Lyme - as well as other things going on. I would encourage you to find a treatment that 'agrees' with you, and to start, but you also need to start a good detoxing routine and to make sure your diet is in a good place, as we need all the nutrients we can get to fuel our body for the fight.

So I wanted to say something about your test that you linked to. Do you see your "band of stripes" and how it shows more bands than the ones they 'want' to count? Those need to be considered!!! ANY response on some bands is important. So you had a reaction on 23 and 39 - both are specific for Lyme, which means a lot. They carefully didn't identify some of the bands, so we can't count the ones we don't know.

You seem to be the type that likes to do research, so here is the site that I use to help interpret them:www.oocities.org/hotsprings/oasis/6455/western-blot.t​​xt You can go there to find supporting Pubmed articles showing what these bands represent.

​A "Lyme specific band" means specific for Borrelia Burgdorferi, sensu stricto - Lyme disease in the strictest sense. There ​are​ only ​two​ on the over 300 known strains of Lyme that is considered Bb, ss. Nothing else will turn a Lyme specific band positive other than Lyme disease.


​​​​​​Bands 18 & 41 (whether in IgM or IgG) are indicative of the tail of the bacteria, which can cross react with other Spirochetal bacteria such as Relapsing Fever, Pintas and Yaws, and Syphilis.

Hello, Traveler:

Like some of the other folks, you probably recognize that my screen names comes from the movie The Big Lebowski.

Wow, thanks for all that wonderful information! I've watched your posts for a while; as well as Pirouette, Girlie, Georgia Hunter, bluelyme, PeteZa, Psilociraptor, k07, and others. I sincerely appreciate the amazing humanitarian effort everyone here makes - both veterans and new members, alike.

The Dude