Long term fluorochinolones (Cipro)

I've been diagnosed with chronic prostatitis 2 years ago (Lyme and Co's für 15+ years). The germ which causes the prostatitis is Pseudomonas. I was told to take Cipro for at least 10 days in the past, but I refused to take it because of the horrible side effects. Last week I ended up in hospital with acute prostatitis and got iv-antibiotics for a few days (fever was gone nearly immediately). The doc wants me to take Cipro for 6 months or so because the infection is long term chronic in my case and no other oral antibiotic will work for this germ. I'm very afraid to take it, but here in Germany Cipro is considered to be a very good to tolerate antibiotic. So no one would prescribe expensive iv antibiotics if cheap oral ciprofloxacin does the job as well.

I'm interested if someone here has already taken a fluorochinolone antibiotic (short or long term) and if you suffered permanent damage. I know this issue is taken quite seriously in the US, but in Germany it is not at this time. Don't know what to do...

Bumping for more views.

I was given levaquin and Cipro IVs in succession after surgery about eight years ago and
still have serious debilitating issues as do many thousands if not millions of others here in the USA, as is reflected in literally thousands of pending lawsuits against Johnson and Johnson and big pharma co's. By taking any fluoroquinolone you are rolling the dice, and that dice is being rolled with each dose you take as adverse reactions appear to occur when a threshold of exposure is reached, which threshold appears to vary from person to person. For some one dose is enough to initiate an adverse reaction, for others many repeated doses may be necessary before they have a bad reaction. Also, in the USA anyway, fluoroquinolones are being used in food production so if one eats farm produced dairy or meat, one is very likely being dosed repeatedly, which will contribute to reaching one's dose threshold, or if one has had an adverse reaction, unless one becomes a strict vegan, one runs the risk of compounding the initial adverse reaction and never recovering at any level if one continues to eat typical meat and dairy produce.

If one does have an adverse reaction, the reaction is likely to be felt lifelong, and be seriously debilitating, on a level equal to or likely worse than most lyme and co-infection diseases. It will also make treating lyme and co. much more complex and tricky, as fluroquinolone reactions are very similar and sometimes indistinguishable from lyme and co. symptoms, so you can never be sure what you're treating or how you're reacting to any given treatment. And to make matters worse, many of the key herbs used for treating lyme and co, like japanese knotweed and Samento or Cat's claw, and many other herbs, have a high content of naturally occurring quinolones, which even without being "floxed" can initiate "floxed" like symptoms, but for those who have been "floxed" those herbs cause a repetition of their fluroquinolone adverse reaction, so, for many, those herbs are off limits and reduce their lyme and co. herbal treatment options....

Google "floxed" or "fluroquinolone adverse reactions", go on u-tube and search the same, at least you'll have some idea of the risk you'll be running. Also note, many times fluoroquinolone reactions are delayed, sometimes weeks, sometimes months, sometime years, so when your good Dr., or some other MD claims they are relatively safe etc....it's extremely likely that a good percentage of that MD's patients did have an adverse reaction but the connection between the reaction and the drug wasn't made due to a time lag between the drugs administration and it's delayed effect. Also due to the vested interests many MD's have, in for instance, avoiding liability, or being proven wrong concerning the danger of these drugs, etc.they may be in denial about just how dangerous their prescribed fluoroquinolones are.... so the person who develops severe arthritis or tendonitis, or a heart condition or fibromialgia, or any number of other conditions sometime after taking a floroquinolone is never informed and may never know that had they not taken cipro, levaquin etc...they would never have developed their new disease.

Three days of Cipro gave me serious stomach cramps that I begged the doctor for permission to stop. I knew not what I was taking and was not informed of any risks.

I prefer to use Nascent Iodine now and again. Any Fluoride based anything would render it ineffective.

FWIW - this is Stephen Buhner's response about someone questioning Samento

"......After researching it, I saw that Dr. Lee Cowden claims that its antimicrobial effects are due to the quinovic acid glycosides on which quinolone antibiotics are based. I told my naturopath and called Nutramedix. Both assured me that there are no quinolones in Samento and there won’t be any similar reactions. Reviewing the chemical structures of both leads me to believe there are no similarities, I can’t be sure they won’t have similar reactions. I already started using the samento and have been feeling much worse. Is this just a Herxheimer reaction or am I potentially worsening my FTS symtoms by taking the samento? Please get back to me soon. I am suffering horribly already and extremely frightened by the prospect of making matters worse when I desperately want to get better.

Stephen’s response:
There are no similarities, however, some people don’t respond well to samento. I personally believe that TOA-free cat’s claw does create more side effects than the whole herb does and I have seen this before. Just stop using it.
Stephen"

i'll start by saying i'm not allergic (or have any side effects) from any antibiotics and i've been on them all......except Levaquin and Cipro.

after 14 days my calf muscles started to tighten to the point of almost rupturing so i had to stop. i tried cipro a few months later (also to treat bartonella) since its supposed to be milder and i couldn't get through 5 days without neuropathy in my feet and that danged calf muscles tightening up again. it took a few weeks for them both to die down.

like any abx everyone will respond differently but this one didn't go well for me. conversely i've been doing bactrim a sulfa drug for almost a year and no issues whereas others have had what sounds like near death experiences from it.

The FDA ordered the company to add a black box warning label for the fluoroquinolones.
This was after they were pressured to do so.

edition.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/07/08/antibiotics.risk/

"The consumer group Public Citizen asked the FDA in August 2006 to put the "black box" warning on Cipro and other fluoroquinolones, and also to warn doctors. Earlier this year, Public Citizen filed a lawsuit to force the FDA to take those actions."



Weigh the benefits vs the risks when making a decision to use it.

Another med that Lyme patients use that has a black box warning is Flagyl. (And Tinidazole because it is similar to Flagyl)

Psilo, are you saying that JK has no resemblance to the synthetic quinolones?

Girlie,

In the Buhner quote, which i have never seen before, Buhner offers no evidence for his claims, and it is clear Lee Cowden MD, who likely has a lot more formal training in chemistry and physiology than Buhner, weighs in on the opposing side of this issue. I couldn't find any other "authority" than Buhner who makes or backs up Buhner's claim. The anecdotal evidence of samento having flueoroquinolone like adverse reactions in some people who take it, is, after just a brief google search, pretty convincing. Buhner makes a broad claim, with no support, while ignoring what are now, many reports of people having virtually identical responses to samento as some are having to flueroquinolones.

Regarding the molecular similarities of chemical elements of samento and synthetic quinolones, and at what level molecular similarity results in similar outcomes, Buhner offers no evidence or argument to back up his claim of no similarity or relevant relationship between samento and synthetic quinolones, we are expected to just take his word for it. Nutramedix sells Samento, so they have a vested interest in which side to weigh in on in this debate. Some of the people who have floxed like reactions to Samento and to Knotweed are taking it for reasons other than lyme and co..., so that does indicate that adverse reactions to these herbs are not always simply herxs.

In the scientific community names of chemicals, molecules etc.. are not arbitrary, and it is hard to believe that, given that at least some of the naturally occurring chemicals that both share the prefix or root "quin" and share with flueroquinolones very similar or identical adverse reactions from consumption in some people, these are just coincidences. Throw in the fact that the synthetic quinolone molecule was based on naturally occurring quinolones or naturally occurring quinolone precursors which are present in herbal anti-biotics, then, the list of coincidences regarding natural "quins" and synthetic "quins" become, at least for me, hard to accept as mere coincidences or correlations. It would take a lot more than what Buhner offered to convince that there is no relevant relationship between Samento and synthetic quinolones.

Buhner doesn't need to offer evidence because it's inherent in the structure of the molecule itself which is a quick google search away. Unlike Buhner I do have a background in biochem and while I don't profess to be an expert in this particular area I can tell you that any reason for the similar nomenclature is not indicative of overall biological similarities between quinovic acid and quinolone. That doesn't mean it's arbitrary. It was probably named quinovic acid if I had to guess because it was discovered in cinchona which is a source of quinine. But these are structurally unrelated nonetheless. Seriously, just look up the structures. I can't deny people's experiences of side effects. I can't deny the possible presence of natural quinolones. But I can say the erroneous claim that samento is related to fluoroquinolone because of quinovic acid is well... erroneous. There are far more structurally related compounds with divergent pharmacology (ie mescaline, dopamine and methamphetamine) than these two. These two are not even in the same ballpark. Quinovic acid has more in common with steroid hormones and cholesterol than it does with quinolone

Psilociraptor said...
Just saw your second post. The issue with samento is that it's not even close. It's not even a quinone. I can understand why one would be more concerned over a quinone like emodin. But even yet it is too far structurally removed from quinolone to make any sort of guess based on structural activity relationships. Even within the quinolones structure and property varies dramatically. My point is not to say that these things can't have side effects. The point is to say that they are sufficiently removed from quinone so that they can not be blamed for their relationship to them. Herbs are complex and human diseases are complex. I personally have never heard such claims of these side effects but should they exist they can not be attributed to quinone composition nor should one be suspicious of quinone with the vast amount of other factors present. Not to say it can't be quinone. There's just not enough structural similarity to even make that assumption. The "quin" part, while I can't seem to find the exact meaning, refers to a relatively basic molecular component which has been elaborated on extensively. It's a step above saying everything with a methyl group must be like methamphetamine

There are many people, myself included, that have had these fluroquinolone like effects from natural herbs containing "quin" substances. I also was floxed so I can compare the two effects, as have others. How can you be sure that the structural differences you see, preclude what are, almost identical outcomes? You state, "not to say it can't be quinone", then go on to say, "there's just not enough structural similarity to even make that assumption." Which is it? Why not work backwards from, identical outcomes to perhaps some similarity or other structural factor you're missing? You didn't answer the question, not that you have to, but, what naturally occurring quinolones are the synthetic quinolones based on, and from which plants? I would think Samento, would be a strong candidate, it being a well known, uniquely powerful, natural antibiotic....the "quin" part may be some clue, given, whoever synthesized quinolones took the trouble to include that in their product name. It's understood that the "quin" part of Samento is not a quinone, none the less, you dismiss them both as not being related to synthetic quinolones or each other, but, given the similarity of effect between drugs or herbs which happen to contain one of these three chemicals, and the chance or likelyhood that Samento or Catsclaw played some role in the development of synthetic quinolone drugs, it does seem there must be some factor beyond the particular molecular "similarity" you seem to expect but are not finding which would explain these coincidences of name, derivation, and outcome.

Or, if not Samento, then from which other plant were synthetic quinolones derived? Or is it that quinolones, or some class of quinolonoes or precurses of quinolones, or some related quinolone like substances were all (or some) used to create a synthetic version or hybrid, which, was inspired by some shared antibiotic property these varying (which you stated, have no relevant similarity) chemicals have?

Post Edited (tonesg) : 6/7/2017 10:42:07 PM (GMT-6)

tonesg said...



In the scientific community names of chemicals, molecules etc.. are not arbitrary, and it is hard to believe that, given that at least some of the naturally occurring chemicals that both share the prefix or root "quin" and share with flueroquinolones very similar or identical adverse reactions from consumption in some people, these are just coincidences. Throw in the fact that the synthetic quinolone molecule was based on naturally occurring quinolones or naturally occurring quinolone precursors which are present in herbal anti-biotics, then, the list of coincidences regarding natural "quins" and synthetic "quins" become, at least for me, hard to accept as mere coincidences or correlations. It would take a lot more than what Buhner offered to convince that there is no relevant relationship between Samento and synthetic quinolones.

What about Quinine? ....or Quinadine? They also share the root "quin"

getting joint cracking from cipro only 6 pills