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Why isn't Lyme infecting everyone?

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Posted 6/12/2017 2:29 AM (GMT 0)
okay. So this is not a smart a#$ question, but I know it's going to come off as one....

I've been wondering this for a while. I've read a lot of information about Lyme&co on this forum and on medical journal articles. If Lyme&co is passed through fleas, ticks and mosquitos and is also passed in utero, through breast milk and sexually... then shouldn't EVERYONE have Lyme? Seriously... I have yet to meet a person that's never been bitten by a mosquito and all the sexually transmitted diseases are on the up swing... sooooooo....

Is it possible that pretty much everyone is a carrier, but (along the same thinking that many take on autoimmune diseases) the chemicals, possessed foods, pesticides, destruction of gut flora, etc... have made us incapable of fighting something that our bodies were once capable of fighting? So maybe there are people out there that are asymptomatic Lyme&co carriers?

The reason I ask, besides being curious, is that we're discerning trying to have another child. So I was thinking that even if we adopted, wouldn't we have a similar risk of adopting a child with Lyme as we would having our own biological child?

Maybe I'm thinking about this too much...

Thanks, friends, for entertaining my insanity...
Posted 6/12/2017 2:40 AM (GMT 0)
Not all of the insects have the Bb bacteria - even ticks - they don't all have it.
I don't know what the Stats are - what percentage do carry it.

And then there's the fact that you can get bitten and your immune system may be strong enough to take care of it.

Yes, you could adopt a baby that has Lyme disease.

I don't believe there are more people with Lyme disease than without it.
I know others will post something contrary to my last statement.
Posted 6/12/2017 2:43 AM (GMT 0)
Can you postpone plans for a baby for awhile - and treat your infection - perhaps you will have it under control within 6-8 months?

(It's a relapse - you're dealing with? Maybe it won't take long to put into remission)
Posted 6/12/2017 2:52 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks, Girlie... we've had 3 miscarriages in 6 years after 4 years of infertility and I'm scheduled to get my ovaries out due to a significant risk of ovarian cancer (My mom and several family members died from it), so no. If we're going to give it another shot, then December is the latest we'd want to wait. But we're not opossed to adoption or being insanely happy with the two we have. There's just a lot to weigh...
Posted 6/12/2017 3:31 AM (GMT 0)
I did read your other thread - but wasn't sure how tight the timeline was. If you do decide to "go for it" - there is some time - a few months to treat and at least maybe knock down the infection some?

And you can take an antibiotic during pregnancy I believe to help lower the chances the baby gets it.
Posted 6/12/2017 3:39 AM (GMT 0)
Also - as someone mentioned in the other thread - if you do decide to try and get pregnant - it's best you are under the care of a LL Dr - before and during your pregnancy.
Posted 6/12/2017 3:45 AM (GMT 0)
So 94% of dna connexions tests are coming back positive .and my friend and i see spirochetes in 9 of 10 peoples blood under the microscope . I think because it is slow growing and people are happy with bs diagnosis like fibro ,ms als ,arthritis and lupus most people are ok with lyme eating their brain til it gets to alzhiemers which has a 90%rate on the elderly .

..this pandemic is the ultimate population control and while it eats our brains people a)can't figure it out on their own (the internet is soon to be possibly censored)and or b) dont have the capacity or stamina to fight the broken system (that would rather keep us on immunosuppressive and pain med for life ) or even the know how or means to fight the actual systemic infection for years out of pocket

.its a meniachial travesty and the more i see society through my lyme colored glasses the more i realize ..everybody does have it ! Look at our collage rates ,socio-political state of affairs and see idiocracy is today....in my spirochete infested opinion

Post Edited (bluelyme) : 6/11/2017 9:49:41 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/12/2017 4:56 AM (GMT 0)

bluelyme said...
So 94% of dna connexions tests are coming back positive .and my friend and i see spirochetes in 9 of 10 peoples blood under the microscope . I think because it is slow growing and people are happy with bs diagnosis like fibro ,ms als ,arthritis and lupus most people are ok with lyme eating their brain til it gets to alzhiemers which has a 90%rate on the elderly .

Blue - this is skewed - 94% of the population aren't coming back positive.
Who sends their blood to labs for testing? People who have symptoms of LD. So 94% of people who have LD symptoms are getting positive results.

I also don't know if most people are happy with those diagnoses - they just don't know there's an alternative diagnosis that is treatable in most cases.
Posted 6/12/2017 7:48 AM (GMT 0)
i think there is also a genetic component that makes a subset of the lyme infected people very sick and chronic. it's very complicated.
Posted 6/12/2017 9:12 AM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...

bluelyme said...
So 94% of dna connexions tests are coming back positive .and my friend and i see spirochetes in 9 of 10 peoples blood under the microscope . I think because it is slow growing and people are happy with bs diagnosis like fibro ,ms als ,arthritis and lupus most people are ok with lyme eating their brain til it gets to alzhiemers which has a 90%rate on the elderly .

Blue - this is skewed - 94% of the population aren't coming back positive.
Who sends their blood to labs for testing? People who have symptoms of LD. So 94% of people who have LD symptoms are getting positive results.

I also don't know if most people are happy with those diagnoses - they just don't know there's an alternative diagnosis that is treatable in most cases.

that statistic is coming from the director of the lab . And of course thats people who are interested in getting a dx .if any one wants to fund me and tooty and mustard to find spirochetes in random "healthy "population i would be game in that "research
Posted 6/12/2017 1:16 PM (GMT 0)
Here's my take on it:

A) pretty much everyone has been exposed to the bacteria and if tested with IGeneX will have borellia specific bands

Or

B) testing is flawed and giving false positives

This is based on MY family which everyone (3 kids and husband) who were positive on either labcorp wb, IGeneX or Elispot. They are all functioning fine with no illness. So I guess if they have it the immune system had it under control.

I could have passed in utero yet was perfectly healthy, healthy pregnancies, no tick bites prior. I did have flu- like illness 8 years ago in the summer after yard work which is when we are guessing the tick bite happened. All kids were born at that point. We have a huge population of ticks in our area. My health declined after that but took 5 years to reach breaking point.

My family could still get sick but I think that we are a good example of general population.

Post Edited (k07) : 6/12/2017 7:29:32 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/12/2017 1:50 PM (GMT 0)
Well, we know that the testing is flawed, but it's flawed in a way that works against those of us that don't have one of the two main strains that these tests are designed to monitor. The tests were never supposed to be used to determine if a person HAS the infection, only to track how far the infection spread across the country.

Otherwise I agree with Mpost, who gets an active infection that needs treatment and who doesn't is a very complex thing - that has yet to be understood.

Could it be possible that you would adopt a child that already has Lyme? That's always a possibility, just like wondering who you pass on the street has these infections and who doesn't - who will get sick enough to need treatment and who can live with the bacteria kept under control.

There simply isn't enough research being done to be able to answer most of these questions other than guessing an answer.

I do hope that you plan on being in treatment if you have active symptoms - and I say this as a child that grew up with these infections - not to be mean or unfeeling.
Posted 6/12/2017 1:59 PM (GMT 0)
I think more people have it than don't, especially in endemic areas. A lot are just asymptomatic because their immune system keeps it in check. Could be due to genetic factors or other issues.

I also don't believe that it is transmitted by mosquitoes. I also think it's not as easy to transmit sexually as some claim. Dr. H agrees on these points. Theoretically, mosquitoes should transmit Lyme, but theoretically they should transmit HIV, and we know they don't. It's not as simple as Lyme is found in mosquitoes, so it much be transmitted to humans. There are processes the bacteria go through within the actual tick itself that allows the bacteria to survive and be transmitted to humans. There's also the fact that mosquitoes only feed on humans for a few seconds, ticks feed for days. I definitely think these are areas that need a lot more research though.

I do think that it is pretty clear that Lyme is transmitted in utero. Babies born to mothers who are infected have tested positive at birth. That's pretty convincing. Miscarriage and trouble conceiving can also be caused by Lyme. The trouble conceiving is hard to prove, but babies lost to miscarriage have tested positive for Lyme.

Post Edited (mm57553) : 6/13/2017 7:40:17 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/12/2017 2:03 PM (GMT 0)
Mm, there are scientific studies that have proven that at least 2 species of mosquitoes carry and pass these infections. They don't explain why they stopped after testing only those mosquitoes though.

jcm.asm.org/content/26/8/1482.short

Springer won't allow a link to this article - sorry, you'll have to copy and paste.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs150100050029?LI=true


europepmc.org/abstract/med/9513946
Posted 6/12/2017 2:12 PM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...
Mm, there are scientific studies that have proven that at least 2 species of mosquitoes carry and pass these infections. They don't explain why they stopped after testing only those mosquitoes though.

jcm.asm.org/content/26/8/1482.short


/link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs150100050029?LI=true


europepmc.org/abstract/med/9513946

I don't question that Borrelia has been found in mosquitoes. But I think transmitting it to humans is up for debate. Ticks produce a protein that allows the bacteria to survive in ticks for a long period of time. Like I said, more research needs to be done, but I think it's questionable.
Posted 6/12/2017 2:26 PM (GMT 0)
Well, the science is there to prove that the infection can be passed from a mosquito to others. We all have the choice in what we believe.

I do agree that we need more research - but it's just not being done.
Posted 6/12/2017 2:45 PM (GMT 0)
My personal opinion on this subject is that many, many people are infected with the Lyme & co infections, but that not everyone is sick. This could be due to many factors, such as their immune systems, genetics, etc.

I also believe that if you are infected, you will, mostly likely at some point, become sick. Either you'll go through a major life stressor, which will compromise your immune system, or you'll become ill with something else, which will compromise your immune system, or you'll simply get older, which compromises your immune system. People mistreat their bodies with poor food choices, stress and chemicals in their cleaning and personal care products, etc., and eventually, it will wear their bodies down enough that they will get sick. It might not be for 40 years after they were infected, but I think it usually catches with people at some point, even if it's diagnosed as something else, like MS, Lupus, Fibro, ALS, Alzheimers, etc.

People won't be sick until they are. I had Lyme and co. for many, many years without knowing it. Now that I've been diagnosed, I realize that I've had very minor symptoms for years, possibly even since childhood, but I attributed them to being human and alive. My immune system was handling it. Until my immune system was compromised in just the right way, and Lyme was able to take hold. Now I'm fighting to get it back under control. But I believe I will have to be diligent with my diet and self-care for the rest of my life, and that my kids will as well.
Posted 6/12/2017 3:35 PM (GMT 0)

bluelyme said...

Girlie said...

bluelyme said...
So 94% of dna connexions tests are coming back positive .and my friend and i see spirochetes in 9 of 10 peoples blood under the microscope . I think because it is slow growing and people are happy with bs diagnosis like fibro ,ms als ,arthritis and lupus most people are ok with lyme eating their brain til it gets to alzhiemers which has a 90%rate on the elderly .

Blue - this is skewed - 94% of the population aren't coming back positive.
Who sends their blood to labs for testing? People who have symptoms of LD. So 94% of people who have LD symptoms are getting positive results.

I also don't know if most people are happy with those diagnoses - they just don't know there's an alternative diagnosis that is treatable in most cases.

that statistic is coming from the director of the lab . And of course thats people who are interested in getting a dx .if any one wants to fund me and tooty and mustard to find spirochetes in random "healthy "population i would be game in that "research


I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

94% of people testing at DNA connexions are positive for LD.

That doesn't equate to 94% of the population.
It is 94% of a group of people who have symptoms and got tested.

If we tested everyone - including people who dont have symptoms of LD - I doubt if it would be 94% positive.
Posted 6/12/2017 4:09 PM (GMT 0)
There are a lot of factors likely involved here. For one, not all of these insects carry Lyme all the time. My fiance has been bit by dozens of ticks and I don't even recall having a tick bite. Yet she's in decent health and i am sick. Secondly, transmission rates are not perfect. Much like acquiring an STD pathogens don't depend on perfect transmission. Just enough transmission to be viable over the long haul. You might have sex with someone several times before acquiring an STD. Then of course immunity. From everything we eat, to our stress levels and the chemicals in our environment determine how effective our immune response is to the bacteria. Then the issue of the vector itself. Lyme has been found in mosquitos, it may be passed by mosquitos. But it may be acquired and transmitted through them at much lower frequencies than ticks since they don't have as strong of a relationship.

Then the issue of virulence... Paul Ewald wrote a good book on this. Lyme is not just Lyme. Every population of spirochetes is genetically diverse so that some are extremely virulent and others are not so much. Virulent organisms can seriously damage their host which can prevent transmission. For example if a host walks through a patch, gets bit by a tick then goes home and ends up house bound for several years it's an evolutionary dead end for that bacteria. Over time the more benign forms are going to be naturally selected so that the host does not end up bed bound, but rather continues taking walks in the woods and acquiring more ticks and transmitting more Lyme. On the other hand, if the host lives in a place where ticks are overpopulated, being house bound is less of an issue. Dogs are more likely to bring them in, simply walking to the back yard may lead to encounters and so on. So the more crippling forms of the infection can then outcompete the benign ones because transmission is more frequent. So local ecology plays a role as well. Lyme can be incapacitating, or it can likely be low grade and undetectable, only manifesting decades later as dementia or cancer.
Posted 6/12/2017 4:42 PM (GMT 0)
Excellent post Psilociraptor.
Posted 6/12/2017 5:34 PM (GMT 0)
Has there ever been a study where healthy population was tested? I don't think most people want to know yet if we all had our families tested via IGeneX I would bet most have lyme specific bands. I've asked a couple lyme docs if they've ever tested and they said no. I wish they would. I want to know how many of us are walking around with this. My hunch is that it may be the co's causing the most illness.
Posted 6/12/2017 6:19 PM (GMT 0)
I totally agree with K07. It's not only Borrelia and infected ticks that are making us sick (even though, more contact means more danger, of course).

Dr. Rau speaks of a study in this video, done for epidemiological reasons, in the area I live (the area he mentions, which is the first area where lyme disease appeared, many many decades before the first US case in Lyme, Connect).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT6An0jA8Vw

He speaks at 8:30 above that the whole population they analyzed were 80% Westernblot positive for Borrelia (IcG). However, only 2% of these had lyme symptoms!!

Just look at further statistics: in the area mentioned above, about 30% of ticks are infected with Bb. So if you get bitten 3 times a year, you have a 100% chance of getting Borrelia, statistically speaking.

I got first very ill after one single tick bite. Severely ill. My daughter too, her first bite happened at age 2, on her head. We both fell almost immediately ill, then declined fast to develop a full blown neuro-arthritic lyme disease.

All our neighbors are bitten frequently by ticks. Certainly most have been bitten more than 3 times in their lifetime. We are bitten about 5 times a year (per person!!). So statistically we would be next to 200% chance of getting infected with Borrelia. And this is only for 2017!!

Why aren't we falling ill any more in the last 8 years, despite an average of 5 bites a year, sometimes a bit less, sometimes more bites?

At this exact moment I'm writing, I still have the first tick's head inside my back, and still 2 visible bite wounds to heal.

Last 2 weeks, 3 tick bites on myself. This year, it's been so long 5 bites. My daughter got only 3 so far.

How could lyme be only caused by infected ticks? No, I see people being bitten all the time, my cat included, and never falling ill. The couple who lived in the house I rent for the last 14 years, lived to almost 100, and almost on their own (no help!!).

Their numerous children are in their 70s-80s, only one died so far, from cancer.

So it's clear that not everyone falls ill with infected tick bites. I just can tell by our own examples and by seeing others around us, and following the history of the family who lived in the same house that made my life a hell (due to infected ticks).

We catch ticks also INSIDE the house, and that is not rare!!

In the whole village, we were the only 2 cases of lyme. Not anymore, as we are both lyme free for at least 8 years.

Positive Westernblots are not a warrant of positive lyme disease, according to dr. Rau, from Paracelsus Clinic.

Post Edited (Jinna) : 6/12/2017 12:31:36 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/12/2017 6:43 PM (GMT 0)

Jinna said...


Positive Westernblots are not a warrant of positive lyme disease, according to dr. Rau, from Paracelsus Clinic.

The testing is generally used to back up symptoms. Most people who are testing have systemic, unexplained symptoms...and that's why they are testing.


I don't know many healthy people who would test for lyme disease...unless they have family members who have it and have been exposed or have had a tick bite......etc.
Posted 6/12/2017 6:57 PM (GMT 0)
Oh and i forgot to mention genetics. Certain things like HLA types can determine whether we get sick from a pathogen.
Posted 6/12/2017 7:53 PM (GMT 0)

Psilociraptor said...
Oh and i forgot to mention genetics. Certain things like HLA types can determine whether we get sick from a pathogen.

Yes, very true. I do have HLA gene (15-6-51 i think?) but have not tested kids or husband yet. I think that will be my next project in figuring this out.
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