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To cat's claw or not to cat's claw

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Posted 8/21/2017 1:15 AM (GMT 0)
I still haven't tested positive for lyme (band 41 only) but an old doc, who is versed in Buhner's, wanted me to take cat's claw anyway just to be safe. He said since i don't have joint pain or fatigue i likely don't have it but i dont know for sure.

Im on the full bartonella and mycoplasma protocol, plus andrographis. However, when i take cat's claw i just feel a little... off. Nothing major just slightly "bleh". I wanted to be cautious and cover my bases with lyme just in case but it sort of feels like this herb doesn't totally agree with me. I also am skeptical of eleuthero because i have little to no fatigue, my symptoms are purely neurological.

Are knotweed and andrographis alone enough for lyme?
Posted 8/21/2017 1:51 AM (GMT 0)
Aerose91,

Let me be very clear...not everyone with Lyme gets fatigue and /or joint pain.

Band 41 is either Lyme or syphilis. I only showed band 41 and I don't have syphillis.

Testing can be unreliable unless you test with Igenix, DNA connections or galaxy.

If you start cats claw in tincture form just try 1 to drops at first to see how you react.

I have neuro Lyme and for some reason the cats claw does make me have huge increase in neuro symptoms and feel way off. But others use it and are fine with it.

Capsules were too much for me, with a tincture I was able to go slow to see if I had ant reaction allergic or sensitive to it.

Take care, Jo
Posted 8/21/2017 3:08 AM (GMT 0)

Aerose91 said...
I still haven't tested positive for lyme (band 41 only) but an old doc, who is versed in Buhner's, wanted me to take cat's claw anyway just to be safe. He said since i don't have joint pain or fatigue i likely don't have it but i dont know for sure.

Im on the full bartonella and mycoplasma protocol, plus andrographis. However, when i take cat's claw i just feel a little... off. Nothing major just slightly "bleh". I wanted to be cautious and cover my bases with lyme just in case but it sort of feels like this herb doesn't totally agree with me. I also am skeptical of eleuthero because i have little to no fatigue, my symptoms are purely neurological.

Are knotweed and andrographis alone enough for lyme?

I never had fatigue as a symptom for the 14 months I was undiagnosed and even after I started treatment - I didn't have fatigue while treating Lyme or Bart - just recently now that I'm treating Babesia I have fatigue.

Joint pain didn't join my symptom list until about 7 or 8 months after my symptoms started.

Our symptom "package" is unique to us - some never get fatigue or joint pain.
Posted 8/21/2017 3:14 AM (GMT 0)
Huh, interesting. Is his current lyme protocol knotweed, cat's claw, eleuthero and andrographis?

I don't feel like the cat's claw is a herx reaction or anything, just weird. When i take knotweed i feel a bit better, cat's claw i feel a bit worse, even with a small amt of tincture. I'll try to go back to a very low dose, though
Posted 8/21/2017 6:37 AM (GMT 0)

goshawk said...


Band 41 is either Lyme or syphilis. I only showed band 41 and I don't have syphilis

there are many spirochete species besides lyme and syphilis, many people have them in mouth flora. vast majority are non systemic but they do have band 41 flagellin.

in my opinion is a mistake to assume u have lyme/syphillis just by relying on band 41....
Posted 8/21/2017 6:45 AM (GMT 0)
for the curious folk, i recommend reading this paper, it is all about p41 and borrelia, very interesting....


onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-3083.2001.00893.x/pdf
Posted 8/21/2017 7:00 AM (GMT 0)

mpost said...

goshawk said...


Band 41 is either Lyme or syphilis. I only showed band 41 and I don't have syphilis

there are many spirochete species besides lyme and syphilis, many people have them in mouth flora. vast majority are non systemic but they do have band 41 flagellin.

in my opinion is a mistake to assume u have lyme/syphillis just by relying on band 41....


I don't think LLMD's assume someone has lyme just because they show band 41 positive.
The testing is usually done because someone has symptoms consistent with LD symptoms...and often has been to many Dr.'s and has had many tests/imaging done to rule out differential diagnoses.

Lyme should remain a clinical diagnosis with testing used as a backup.
Posted 8/21/2017 12:15 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...

mpost said...

goshawk said...


Band 41 is either Lyme or syphilis. I only showed band 41 and I don't have syphilis

there are many spirochete species besides lyme and syphilis, many people have them in mouth flora. vast majority are non systemic but they do have band 41 flagellin.

in my opinion is a mistake to assume u have lyme/syphillis just by relying on band 41....


I don't think LLMD's assume someone has lyme just because they show band 41 positive.
The testing is usually done because someone has symptoms consistent with LD symptoms...and often has been to many Dr.'s and has had many tests/imaging done to rule out differential diagnoses.

Lyme should remain a clinical diagnosis with testing used as a backup.

That's what's tough for me, i have tons of neurological symptoms but the bart can explain most of them. After testing positive for band 41 I found 2 rotted wisdom teeth in my mouth so there are so many "what if's". I had them removed but haven't been tested again since, nor did i see an improvement in symptoms

Heres a ?, i have low NK cell function which i know is a hallmark of lyme, but are lyme coinfections covered under that? Can bart and babs also cause low NK cell function? It's such a difficult road to parse down

Post Edited (Aerose91) : 8/21/2017 6:18:45 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/21/2017 12:27 PM (GMT 0)
I've only had neuro symptoms and bands 41 and 58 positive. I've never been sure if its neurolyme or bart. No LLMD has ever been able to give me that answer.

We've always treated for lyme mostly and that seems to work (or had in the past).

Jason
Posted 8/21/2017 12:42 PM (GMT 0)
I would cats claw for sure.

But if tincture does not feel good, change to whole herb.

My body likes whole herb MUCH more than tincture.

I think cats claw is even more important than andrographis, in my experience. Cats claw helped during 2 years, almost without break, while I had to give pauses with andrographis.

Knotweed is essential. Eleuthero is NOT essential, just a plus (in my opinion).

For me, from all Buhner's herbs I took, I think cats claw and Knotweed are the most important for BORRELIA.

Then astragalus come after, I loved to take it, even though I felt less a direct improvement from it when compared to cats claw, andro and knotweed.

Eleuthero is a help, but only pulsed. Like any ginseng, in my opinion, must be only taken pulsed.

But definitively, I would cats claw without doubt! If you dont' feel good with one brand or one form (tincture), change it and try another brand or another form.
Posted 8/21/2017 12:48 PM (GMT 0)
The problems i was having was with the whole herb, i was either drinking a powder or making a tea. I tried the tincture and it was mostly the same, i may try it again though.
Posted 8/21/2017 1:22 PM (GMT 0)

Aerose91 said...
Huh, interesting. Is his current lyme protocol knotweed, cat's claw, eleuthero and andrographis?

In the 2nd edition of the book, his core protocol for Lyme is more in depth and includes collagen support, cytokine remodulators, and a lot more immune herbs than just cat's claw.

For NEURO Lyme, he says Uncaria rhynchophylla is crucial. It's also referred to as Gou teng. I believe woodland essence has the tincture.

I was able to tolerate that better than the regular cat's claw (uncaria tomentosa). I tried the Cat's Claw Herb Pharm tincture first before I ordered all the other herbs. I think I got up to 5 drops. I switched to the whole powdered cat's claw I got from 1st Chinese and started at 1/16th tsp. I couldn't handle it. It caused my inflammation to get worse, so I stopped. I'll try it again at some point.
Posted 8/21/2017 4:33 PM (GMT 0)

WalkingbyFaith said...
I switched to the whole powdered cat's claw I got from 1st Chinese and started at 1/16th tsp. I couldn't handle it. It caused my inflammation to get worse, so I stopped. I'll try it again at some point.

This is how it feels for me too, like existing problems are exacerbated. I read about gou teng and was curious but it's sooo expensive to trial all these herbs. Gou teng is a substitute for cat's claw?

I also take skullcap for bartonella so i know that covers cytokine remodulation (i believe) It seems the immune modulators are most problematic for me. Can eleuthero be substituted for cat's claw?
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