Tell Me About Cipro

Cipro is an effective antibiotic for bartonella.

It also comes with an FDA black box warning for risk of tendon rupture and peripheral neuropathy (that could be permanent)

The problem is with Bart symptoms - a herx could produce symptoms that mimic those.
(Tendon pain and neuropathy)

You're familiar with the term "floxing" or being "floxed" ?
(Obviously autocorrect is not!)
The damage the fluoroquinolones has done is frequent/known well enough that it has a name.
Referring to Ciprofloxacin nd levofloxacin.


Some LLMD's don't prescribe it, but others do because of its effectiveness against Bart.

MM -

I was prescribed Levofloxacin/Levoquin which, like Cipro, is a fluoroquine and as Girlie suggested, this class has a strong black box warning AND it is also very effective against Bart.

Ironically, many of the warning sx are also very common bart sx. Many people take it, develop these sx and stop taking it, concerned that they're getting floxxed. I don't blame them. And of course I really wonder if the people in the trials for these fluoroquines who developed these sx (and therefore these sx were noted as warnings) were also actually herxing from bart and not really being floxxed.

We'll never know.

I was one of those people who both herxed from taking the Levofloxacin AND developed anaphylactic responses. But also ironically, it was the herxing sx that allowed me to start googling weird, specific sx and helped lead me to suspect Lyme & Co and lead me to my LLMD. I had no idea of the black box/floxxing at the time so I automatically assumed herxing.

And I can't think of any of those sx that turned out to be permanent damage.

IMO - your sx really sound like bart herxing. But continuing with the cipro is no easy decision. There aren't a lot of other abx as effective for bart but there are quite a few herbs/combos.

Others on the forum have reported weird floxing/herxing sx and opted to continue taking it. So far, I think everyone who reported results reported progress. Although there could also have been floxxing going on with others - I just don't recall or they didn't follow up with posts.

Be sure to detox, my friend. May the force be with you.

-p

"if it were so dangerous you would see flocks of dead or crippled people flowing on all rivers.... "

Really? lol.
Well, no, that isn't happening, but many people have been harmed by them.
And not all were treating Bartonella.

It is a common antibiotic prescribed for UTI's. For some people the damage happened after taking only one or two dose and the damage is long-lasting.

/floxiehope.com

We have a forum member who was floxed. Summer16.

People with Bartonella can be floxed too...and as bluelyme says - not everything is a herx.

I'm not saying don't take it...but I would certainly try other meds first.

Thanks all for your input! Much appreciated and enlightening as I literally knew very little about Cipro but as I had said, it definitely felt like it was doing something and now that my brief (14 day) prescription for it has run out, all of those issues have seemed to subside.

As some of you may remember I've long suspected Bartonella due to long standing symptoms, but have never tested positive for it so after unsuccessfully trying to treat it via Buhner's herbal protocol, I moved onto treating other known and suspected infections/issues. My current LLND has wanted me to get tested for Bart via the German Armin Lab (which apparently is the gold standard) and while I've put it off due to costs, I think that has emerged as a priority based on this latest experience, which I am now pretty certain was a herx due to fact the symptoms have now apparently stopped.

Knowledge is power but doesn't come for free or without costs/pain does it? What an interesting journey this has been...

One other question for you knowledgeable folks - aside from Bart - what other organisms is Cipro known to kill? How about fungal issues?

I thought you went on Rifampin for awhile to treat Bart?

"Mike, I can probably tell you more than you want to know about Cipro or the other fluoroquinolones"

GH - by all means, please share - love to pick your brain.

GH - the neuro side is probably the most pertinent to me right now, but I'll take any info you want to share!

Georgia Hunter said...
Why is this a problem? For one, many people are magnesium deficient. This can increase the extracellular concentrations of the FQ and in doing so, they have more of an effect on nerve conduction. This happens because magnesium effects calcium channels which allows more calcium inside of cells. This positive ion inside of a cell decreases nerve conduction. But if magnesium levels are low and any available magnesium is being bound to the FQ, this will cause less calcium ions inside the cell and increase nerve conduction. The higher levels of extracellular FQ can also increase the possibility of the FQ binding to aluminum or magnesium attached to bacteria on the extracellular matrix. This erodes the matrix and increases the chances of arthopathy and arthralgias.

This is one of the most helpful things I've read in a while. Excellent info - thanks GH!

Girlie said...

It is a common antibiotic prescribed for UTI's. For some people the damage happened after taking only one or two dose and the damage is long-lasting.

yes girlie but this term "some people" can be very misleading and can make all the difference in the world. It is the reason behind the vaccination panic in US and Europe. Do you know there are thousands of children dead of measles only this year in France and Eastern Europe ? France is not exactly an underdeveloped country, it's just some moms think their children can be harmed by vaccines. Which is TRUE, "some children" means one child in one million dies from vaccine. As compared with one unvaccinated child in 10000 that will die of measles ... The problem with our society is that we do not understand statistics and we cannot evaluate threats properly. There is a great difference between 1 in 1,000,000 and 1 in 10,000. But common folk cannot tell them apart. It's just 2 zeros apart, no ?

Same as with the fluoroquinolones. I am absolutely sure there are some people as you say, that were really terribly hurt by cipro & comp. I do not deny that. But statistically speaking this a tiny fraction of the huge amount of people taking the antibiotics, and of the thousands of people cipro saved from sepsis and certain bacteria death because it was able to kill the bacteria before it happened...

Sure, cipro/levo are dangerous antibiotics and if alternatives exist, by all means, take them. But rifampin IS NOT a harmless alternative. This lady /aftergadget.wordpress.com/ use to take intravenous rifampin infusions daily for years and now she has tendon complications:

" In case you’re curious, I have tenosynivitis, which is basically tendonitis of the wrists, and some tendonitis in my hands, too. I’m doing things like icing three or four times a day, researching wrist braces that I can tolerate (most are made with neoprene, which is super toxic and not an option for me due to my MCS), and trying to mouse and type less. It seems to have been caused by a combination of the Lyme drug I was using, Rifampin, damaging my tendons, along with my constant computer use and my various other inflammatory diseases. My OT said it was “the perfect storm.” Terrific."

Of course because cipro is an antibiotic prescribed to many people as compared with rifampin, which is a TB drug and very hard to get a prescription, the number of people harmed by cipro is greater, But the number of people that have taken cipro over the decades is in hundreds of millions.

Again, power of numbers, we need to understand a bit of basic statistics before taking a decision about what harms us nowadays...

Post Edited (mpost) : 10/29/2017 9:18:26 AM (GMT-6)

Thanks again all. This has been enlightening. I assume if I do treat Bart through pharmaceuticals it'll be through the more traditional Rifampin anyways, but this has helped likely explain why I herxed. That being said, if someone can locate me a list of the things Cipro kills, I'd be most appreciative as I'm curious.

Mister Mike said...
Thanks again all. This has been enlightening. I assume if I do treat Bart through pharmaceuticals it'll be through the more traditional Rifampin anyways, but this has helped likely explain why I herxed. That being said, if someone can locate me a list of the things Cipro kills, I'd be most appreciative as I'm curious.

The fluoroquinolones are better at killing gram negative bacteria but can kill some gram positive ones as well. Resistance has developed on more gram positive than gram negative and was becoming a problem 25 years ago when I was in school. The newer FQ's would have less of an issue with resistance but more of an issue with side effects.

The FQ's are actually very different. For example, Cipro has a first metabolite that has a lot of bactericidal activity. It is enterohepatically recirculated meaning once it is absorbed and processed by the liver, it is dumped back into the GI tract and abosorbed again, processed by the liver, and dumped back into the GI tract. It eventually is renally and fecally excreted. Binders and polyvalent cations play a big role in decreasing its effectiveness and separating a dose of multi-vitamins by a few hours still decreases its effectiveness.

Levaquin is not metabolized at all and yet it can be hepatotoxic. It is excreted renally and people with dysbiosis and a higher intestinal pH can get more than twice the absorption of a person with a normal GI pH. The pH range where the absorption increases is above 5.8 and goes to the upper 6's I believe. It's almost a 2.5 times increase so this would be significant. IMO, the people that are "Floxed" have this problem. If any of you like chemistry, it is a zwitterion at normal intestinal pH.

The FQ's have always been contraindicated in anyone under 18 years old but our wonderful government allowed that to be changed a few years back. Now there is no mention of that contraindication in children because several FQ's can be used for anthrax poisoning. Really! I've had to call physicians on multiple occasions and even declined to fill one Rx when the physician refused to listen.

Girlie - did you use Galaxy for your positive Bart test?