What do you think about these kind of big claims?

Fronton said...
Regarding the decreased brain function, the article concludes that the test subjects (mice) brains rebounded after discontinuing the abx. Good news.

Well - there ya go! (as she gulps down some abx)

So does that mean they are going to recommend that people with tuberculosis stop taking long-term antibiotics? Or that teenagers stop taking long-term Doxy for acne? Funny how they only contend that antibiotics are harmful when taken for Lyme.

mm57553 said...
So does that mean they are going to recommend that people with tuberculosis stop taking long-term antibiotics? Or that teenagers stop taking long-term Doxy for acne? Funny how they only contend that antibiotics are harmful when taken for Lyme.

I know someone who has taken minocycline for five years.

The Dude Abides said...


The following is from Dr. Rawls' website:

"There is definitely a place for using antibiotic therapy for treating acute symptomatic Lyme disease and coinfections.

There is little consensus, however, on antibiotic use for chronic Lyme disease. At present, there are no studies showing benefit from long term use of antibiotic therapy for treatment of Lyme disease and the practice is not condoned by the conventional medical community."

You can read the rest here:

When to Consider Antibiotic Therapy
/rawlsmd.com/health-articles/when-to-consider-antibiotic-therapy

Also consider the following:

Helping the Body Beat Lyme Disease
/youtu.be/u8_dyHJWR7U?t=14m50s

What about this ?

/academic.oup.com/cid/article/45/2/149/420106

Girlie said...

The Dude Abides said...


The following is from Dr. Rawls' website:

"There is definitely a place for using antibiotic therapy for treating acute symptomatic Lyme disease and coinfections.

There is little consensus, however, on antibiotic use for chronic Lyme disease. At present, there are no studies showing benefit from long term use of antibiotic therapy for treatment of Lyme disease and the practice is not condoned by the conventional medical community."

You can read the rest here:

When to Consider Antibiotic Therapy
/rawlsmd.com/health-articles/when-to-consider-antibiotic-therapy

Also consider the following:

Helping the Body Beat Lyme Disease
/youtu.be/u8_dyHJWR7U?t=14m50s

What about this ?

/academic.oup.com/cid/article/45/2/149/420106

Well, I'd say it's like everything else in life -- there are compelling arguments on both sides of nearly EVERY topic. Could I find websites that refute the article you linked? I'm pretty sure I could. Could you, in turn, find five counter-arguments for each of my rebuttals? I KNOW you can!

I mean, take something seemingly simple like diet. What's the correct diet for humans? Is it Paleo? Primal? Weston A. Price Foundation? Low-Carb? High-Fat? Ketogenic? Plant-Based? Starch-Based? Vegan? Vegetarian? Raw Vegan? Fruitarian? High Everything Diet? Should everyone eat the same diet? Why do some eat in a certain way and thrive, while another person eating the same diet sees their health diminish?

If there's little agreement on food, how can we expect to have a consensus on antibiotics or anything else? I'm of the same opinion as PeteZa that each person has to decide what's correct for them.

My point in posting the quote from Dr. Rawls is to accurately quote his stance on antibiotics, because I repeatedly see comments on this forum that are inaccurate or out-of-context. So, rather than having a new member read the incorrect comment "His whole slant was against the use of antibiotics for Lymie’s The whole book was to promote the idea that herbals work better than abc for Lyme" and make a decision based on that misunderstanding, I linked to what Dr. Rawls ACTUALLY believes.

Trust me, I'm not here to argue with anyone or tell them what to do. If I had all the answers, I wouldn't be on this forum. Like most people here, I'm for the open-minded exchange of information and ideas, so I can become better-informed in what choices I make. Because others do the same, when information is incomplete or inaccurate, we have an obligation to clarify or correct it.

As for Dr. Jernigan's comments in his video, that's his opinion and experience, so I can't confirm or refute it. It is provided as a counterpoint, again, so this forum doesn't become an echo chamber of one-dimensional information. If someone thinks that taking a rectal infusion of peanut butter and jelly will help them, more power to them! It's probably not for me, but I support everyone's right to make their own choices. I just want them to do so with as much and as accurate information that's possible. That's all.

Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 1/6/2018 12:41:23 PM (GMT-7)

ABX looks easier on the surface. Thats why people do it.

First thing I did when I got serious about this was look up a local lyme group as there are a bazillion of them in lyme country. After talking to them, I was completely confused on the herb options and they cost more than going to the LLMD abx Dr.

Ins covered my ABX- the sticker shock was less. Plus I could hide taking ABX at work vs bottles of tinctures.

Someone really needs to write a herbs for lyme for dummies that GETS STRAIGHT TO THE POINT. Charts and costs vs paragraphs of pages. Last thing we need to try with lyme brain and anxiety is to read a book. For those who could read more than one paragraph with this....wow, what a luxury, be grateful for it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its interesting Dr Rawls also has fibro info even though hre's a lyme guru : /rawlsmd.com/health-conditions/fibromyalgia

He does stress the point of stealth microbes and low immune function in BOTH fibro and lyme.

I dont believe all fibro is lyme (some have said that here), I do believe it can be other stealth microbes (non-tick illnesses) upsetting the body as well............. , why would this NOT be possible???? Not everything is from lyme.

Problem with many "fibro" people is they (generalizing here) are not in tune with the do it yourself healing that we are, so seldom seek the reasons behind their illness. I have a friend with fibro- I learned to stop lecturing him on health, as thats his wifes job LOL.

The leading cause of illness and death is........life itself.

Post Edited (astroman) : 1/6/2018 1:57:27 PM (GMT-7)

The Dude Abides said...


If someone thinks that taking a rectal infusion of peanut butter and jelly will help them, more power to them! It's probably not for me, but I support everyone's right to make their own choices. I just want them to do so with as much and as accurate information that's possible. That's all.

hmmm - not for me either...

1000Daisies said...

astroman said...

I dont believe all fibro is lyme (some have said that here), I do believe it can be other stealth microbes (non-tick illnesses) upsetting the body as well............. , why would this NOT be possible???? Not everything is from lyme.

I believe that stealth microbes are a cause for many of our common day illnesses. Unfortunately, lyme is overly blamed for it.

I am glad lyme is getting more attention (and we certainly have a long ways to go), but I do wish that the medical community wasn't so quick to blame lyme for everything (even online forums too). There are other microbes (and factors) causing issues, not just lyme. I fully am aware that lyme causes many horrible issues, but it's not the only microbe that is wrecking havoc on us. (in my very humble opinion)

This is true. The Docs should be ruling out differential diagnoses. (and in a timely manner per Dr. H)
Not everything is Lyme.
My GP was doing that...but not in a timely manner...and after a year...when I mentioned Lyme...she said "Oh, didn't we test for that?" um..nope.

I wouldn't say the medical community is quick to blame lyme for everything, though...or we'd be diagnosed sooner.

Girlie said...

The Dude Abides said...


If someone thinks that taking a rectal infusion of peanut butter and jelly will help them, more power to them! It's probably not for me, but I support everyone's right to make their own choices. I just want them to do so with as much and as accurate information that's possible. That's all.

hmmm - not for me either...

Never say never. ;-)

By the way, this evening, my girlfriend and I were making minestrone soup in a pressure cooker. She was chopping vegetables while I was sautéing some onions. Next, I started peeling a giant russet potato, so I could then cut it to add it to the pressure cooker.

Well, I have this absurdly/dangerously sharp vegetable peeler that slipped, and...30 minutes later, we're sitting in the Emergency Room, as I await stitches. Once in the exam room, it took nearly an hour, due to the fact we had trouble stopping the bleeding. She finally injected me four (or, maybe it was five) times in the finger with a local anesthetic, before she started stitching the gash.

Thankfully, I'm fine. The finger throbs and hurts quite a bit, but it could have been worse. And fortunately, it was on my left hand, as I'm right-handed.

The point of the story was she told me to change the dressing twice daily and apply Neosporin (antibiotic cream) at the same time, keep my hand dry, and pay attention to any streaking up the finger/hand/arm, as that could signal an infection. If that happens, I was instructed to return to the ER or see my regular Doctor for...say it with me...an ANTIBIOTIC! Of course, in such a case, I would definitely take it!

astroman said...
ABX looks easier on the surface. Thats why people do it.

First thing I did when I got serious about this was look up a local lyme group as there are a bazillion of them in lyme country. After talking to them, I was completely confused on the herb options and they cost more than going to the LLMD abx Dr.

Ins covered my ABX- the sticker shock was less. Plus I could hide taking ABX at work vs bottles of tinctures.

Someone really needs to write a herbs for lyme for dummies that GETS STRAIGHT TO THE POINT. Charts and costs vs paragraphs of pages. Last thing we need to try with lyme brain and anxiety is to read a book. For those who could read more than one paragraph with this....wow, what a luxury, be grateful for it.

Amen to all of this. I decided to do abx for several reasons. First, I do think they are harsher, but that's also one of the reasons I chose them. I did not want to go easy on them. Second, they were cheaper for me too. My insurance have covered all of my one year on abx. And since I hit my deductible, about the last 6 months were completely free.

I absolutely think herbals are effective and have a place in treatment. Heck, I take some. But I take them in conjunction with my abx. I don't understand why it has to be one or the other. I am also thoroughly confused by herbals. I bought Buhner's book. I am a fairly intelligent, college-educated woman and I came out of it having absolutely no idea what I should take or how much. I think Cowden does a pretty good job of dumbing it down, but it's expensive (see above) and it's kind of a one size fits all approach. My LLMD prescribed abx specifically for me, and it's not the same as what he prescribes for someone else.

I will also say that some herbals kind of scare me. As much as I despise the pharmaceutical industry, one thing I can say is that at least what is actually in each pill is regulated. So I know if I'm taking 200mg of Doxy, I'm getting 200mg of Doxy, or darn near it. Herbals don't have that. I don't know if what I order today is as potent as what I ordered last month. I don't know that it's as pure.

Abx can be hard on the body, but I think herbals can be just as strong and hard. Before I knew what I had, my acupuncturist (love her) suggested Oil of Oregano and gave me a good brand. Since it's pretty broad spectrum, we figured it would cover most bases. Holy crap. I took one drop - ONE - and thought I was going to die. Felt like my insides were on fire. Never took it again. I had trouble building up the abx too, but nothing like a reaction I had with the oil of oregano. No way someone can convince me that it's easier on your system than abx.

The moral of the story is that there is no right answer. Do I think there is some harm in abx? Yes. But I also think there is with herbals too, or else they wouldn't work. Anything that destroys bacteria cells is going to destroy some other cells too. No one has found a plant or drug that doesn't. Some people have horrible reactions to abx, some people have horrible reactions to herbs.

Denise, I saw a food processing plant and the amounts allowed in it for bugs was scary!

I have a girlfriend that is on blood pressure meds. She called me up because she got a new script from the pharmacy and the pills were different. Same prescription. So I looked it up for her.

Her old script from CVS Pharmacy was a yellow pill. She and I searched it and found it was made in China. The pills with the same name but were more of an orange color were made in India. Same script, same dosage, just different manufacturers.

I think they have bidding wars and the least expensive wins.

mm57553 said...
So does that mean they are going to recommend that people with tuberculosis stop taking long-term antibiotics? Or that teenagers stop taking long-term Doxy for acne? Funny how they only contend that antibiotics are harmful when taken for Lyme.

Well TB therapy is much more standardized and actually curable as far as i know. Acne is silly. I was put on tetracycline a lot when i was younger. Didn't do squat.

Peteza,

Yes, that is true about allowing a certain amount of bugs to be used in the raw materials. Of course there are bidding wars and once a company (whether it's in China or India) get the contract they try to save money by using cheaper (or even substitute) raw ingredients, some which are not too healthy.

Did you know Warfarin the blood thinner is really rat poison? Last time I checked it was dated 2016. Premarin is derived from horse urine and the list goes on.

Denise