Convinced calcium in supplemental form is an inorganic toxin. Added Malic Acid to bind aluminum.

Dr. Thomas Levy recommends against supplementing with Copper, Calcium, or Iron. I have always avoided Ferrous Sulfate supplementation based on a gut feel only.

I am convinced we get enough calcium in our food. Our zinc deficiency can make copper supplementation a very risky proposition. I suspect the larger dosing schedule of Magnesium is helping clear up calcification in the body.

www.reboundhealth.com/cms/images/pdf/Article-by-Various-Authors/death%20by%20calcium%20the%20toxicity%20of%20osteoporosis%20therapy%20id%2019053.pdf

Also I have added Malic Acid as I read it sometimes reduces pain. Although I have experienced no direct benefit to pain in my case using Malic Acid (the HEPA filter however is continuing to have the largest impact), I continue to take it as it binds Aluminum. I have no idea if it can bind nano-aluminum particles. Once can only hope.

/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Citric%2C+malic+and+succinic+acids+as+possible+alternatives+to+deferoxamine+in+aluminum+toxicity&TransSchema=title&cmd=detailssearch

Also of potential interest is that according to Dr. Derren Schmidt Ascorbic Acid is not true complete Vitamin C and there are multiple B vitamins missing in most all supplements. He claims Standard Process brand is the complete C and B vitamin. I have not tried Standard Process due to the price but if money were no object I would love to add these. Maybe someday.

ChickenArise,

I'm familiar with Darren Schmidt's position/videos on Vitamin C. For contrast, if you haven't already seen it, check-out the following thread:

/www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3992126

Then, scroll-down to the fourth post and see the "Guide to the Proper Administration of Vitamin C" by Dr. Levy. I'm not trying to be lazy by not posting the link here (), I just thought some of the other links might be interesting to you, also.

There's also information on Vitamin C by Andrew W. Saul, PhD, if you look-around. I participated in one of his MegaVitamin Courses, a couple of years ago. /www.andrewsaulcourse.com His main website is "DoctorYourself" at www.doctoryourself.com I recently shared his audiobook of the same title here: /www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3992702

Anyway, as far as supplementation goes, I seriously doubt that what's in vitamin and mineral supplements is the same as what's in food. How can it be? Not only do whole foods have the compounds that "science" has been able to identify, but whole food also contains all the ones yet-to-be discovered - assuming we ever identify them all. Plus, no one truly knows how all the compounds work together in synergy.

Then, of course, we further complicate matters by introducing them into the body. That adds another astonishing level of complexity.

As the years and decades pass, we discover compounds we didn't know about previously. Back to Vitamin C, as an example. First, it was thought to be only Ascorbic Acid. Then, it was thought that Hesperidin needed to be added. Then, Rutin. Then, Rose Hips. So, it makes me ask: "What was the value of taking that one, isolated supplement, for all of those years?"

Another example of reductionism was illustrated in T. Colin Campbell's book Whole: Rethinking the Science of Nutrition.

"In studying the apple, Professor Liu and his team began by choosing to focus on vitamin C and its antioxidant effect. They found that 100 grams of apples (about a half cup) had an antioxidant, vitamin-C like activity equivalent to 1,500 milligrams of vitamin C, (about 3 times the amount of a typical vitamin C supplement). When they chemically analyzed that 100 grams of the whole apple, however, they found only 5.7 milligrams of vitamin C, far below the 1,500 milligrams that the level of antioxidant activity associated with the vitamin C indicated.

The vitamin-C like activity from 100 grams of whole apple was an astounding 263 times as potent as the same amount of the isolated chemical! Said another way, the specific chemical we refer to as vitamin C accounts for much less than 1 percent of the vitamin C-like activity in the apple – a miniscule amount. The other 99-plus percent of this activity is due to other vitamin C-like chemicals in the apple, the possible ability of vitamin C to be much more effective in context of the whole apple than it is when consumed in an isolated form, or both." (Pg. 152-153)

I certainly don't have all the answers, with regard to diet and supplementation. This is incredibly frustrating for me, because I just want to know what's correct and what's not. But, there's always conflicting opinions.

There's often the idea "If we only had randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials, we could figure-out this stuff."

Then, there's this:

From /www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4572812:

"It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as editor of The New England Journal of Medicine."

Angell M. Drug Companies & Doctors: A Story of Corruption. The New York Review of Books magazine. Available from: www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/jan/15/drug-companies-doctorsa-story-of-corruption

"The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness."

Horton R. Offline: What is medicine’s 5 sigma? www.thelancet.com. Available from: www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736%2815%2960696-1.pdf

Then, just for fun, I found this last night:

/thepeopleschemist.com/stinky-sulfur-award-unapproved-drug-disguised-vitamin

I've got several articles from that site saved, so I can read them this upcoming week. So, I've not read this one yet, either. But, it was suggested by a Naturopath. Not that a Naturopath (or, any designation) should confer automatic truth or credibility. Even the plant-based, vegan doctors disagree on some points - such as Vitamin D supplementation.

So, when my head swirls with all of this stuff, I tend to retreat to what seems most likely to be safe and true. I go back to Michael Pollan's advice: "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." That seems to be the sort of environment humans in which humans probably found themselves the most.

Perhaps reductionism can be helpful in some circumstances, but I'm not convinced that it's ideal when trying to equate whole foods to isolated supplements.

So, rather than taking a lycopene supplement, we should eat a tomato. And, trying to manipulate lab values (e.g. driving-up Vitamin D) probably doesn't correct an underlying pathology (is the "deficiency" the cause or the effect? and, is it really a deficiency? should we check the blood or what's in the cells/organs?) and may not lead to improved health outcomes over the long-term.

But, again, this is just my opinion!

Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 3/25/2018 8:00:56 PM (GMT-6)

ChickenArise said...

Dude Abides:

I agree with just about all of what you posted. Food will always be the best supplementation. I share your distrust in much of the studies and the system as a whole but this is sometimes the best I can come up with for supporting documentation else it is all just going to be my opinion. The recent study suggesting coconut oil may be bad for our health is ludicrous.

Heck I even distrust the food industry for putting calcium in orange juice. Where is the added magnesium supplementation in food? Why isnt it there? I would suspect there is a better chance of most being magnesium deficient than calcium deficient.

I thought in comparing the B and C supplements available that Standard Process might be worth a look as I know of no others like them, but alas I have not tried them so I cant even offer up an opinion on them.

I choose to continue to avoid supplementation in Calcium, Copper, and Iron.

ChickenArise,

I was in a rush to wrap-up my previous brain-dump, as I had another commitment, so I should have clarified that I wasn't suggesting that supplementation is never warranted. As you wisely noted, we often have to do the best we can with what's available and hope for the best. Not everything is perfect.

As for oils (including coconut), I know that's a hot topic that continues to be debated. My view is that it's an isolated, refined food. I'm all for eating coconut meat and drinking the liquid it contains. Again, nature always provides a complete package. However, whether coconut, olive, palm, etc., oils are just concentrated fat. Some oils may contain trace amounts of beneficial compounds, but every oil has 120 calories per tablespoon and 14 grams of fat. I don't see any upside to ingesting oils. But, after shaving, coconut oil feels great on my face. But, that's just my perspective.

Some nine years ago, as I was following the Paleo/Primal/Low-Carb/WAPF diet cults, I recall people getting all spun-up over insulin. "Don't eat "carbs" (a term that was usually ill-defined), because carbs will spike insulin!" Gary Taubes was many of the people always haranguing about insulin and the need to drive it ever-lower. But, it seems that excess dietary fat blocks the insulin-signaling process. If you think back to Kempner and his many chronically-ill patients, the diet he prescribed them (under medical supervision) was rice, fruit, fruit juice, and white sugar. "...the benefits of the Rice Diet far exceed those of any drug or surgery ever prescribed for chronic conditions, including coronary artery disease, heart and kidney failure, hypertension, diabetes, arthritis, and obesity." So much for "carbs" being bad and the insulin hysteria.

Anyway, I digress, as usual.

I think your caution in supplementing calcium and copper is wise. I'm not too versed on supplemental iron, as my supplements are iron-free. For a while, I did take an Organic Plant Calcium supplement from Garden of Life that contained Vitamin D3 from Lichen, Vitamin K2 (MK-7) from Natto, Calcium from Organic Algae, and Magnesium from Organic Algae. While I think plant sources of vitamins and minerals is safer, I still halted taking that supplement. I recently started a multivitamin from The Synergy Company. It has a little copper, but 15 times more zinc. It has no iron, but a little calcium and slightly less magnesium. The product is created from vegetables, fruits, and herbs. I do supplement separately with magnesium, for the reasons you previously noted, as I'm in agreement that magnesium deficiency is likely a common issue.

Lastly, back to copper, if you're not familiar with him, there's a gentleman named Morley Robbins that writes about copper dysregulation. But, chances are you know about him.

Take care, amigo.

The Dude

p.s. Although Standard Process supplements are usually only sold through Chiropractors, you can also find them on Amazon.com. I've taken some of their supplements before, but I can't recall which one(s). I recall getting some seriously horrid body odor, after taking them. When I stopped taking them, the effect tapered-off quickly. It was some serious Pepé Le Pew stuff.

Hello, i just finished my first giant jar of coconut oil, lol, (recommended by my naturopath) i feel i need fat somehow (only 110 lbs) i hope it doesnt go straight to my arteries. I also take calcium for my teeth (recommended by RN wife) because i hear cow dairy is bad. (an udder disaster)

Yep a lot of factors. White rice is a diet that has been known to promote healing as it is super easy to digest. As discussed in the fasting thread it appears that our bodies expend a good amount of energy on digesting and if it has too work too hard it interferes with our healing. There are however legitimate arsenic concerns with much of either white or brown rice.

Fats can work for many but not if we intake fast carbs which convert to sugar rapidly and or sugar. Highly processed forms of vegetable oils that were sold to us as healthy are likely very damaging our bodies and we were told how healthy they are.

Almost everyone knows butter easily trumps margarine or shortening by now.

I dont always like the taste of coconut oil with some foods so I use sunflower for high temps and olive for low temps but this is mainly to avoid the GM concerns of most other oils. I use them minimally. Coconut milk and water however I love and will consume regularly.

I try not to use the term GMO unless I am talking about an organism. I have no problem with Bananas which were GM from plaintains. I have a huge problem when the genes of organisms from different kingdoms being combined for any purpose but am powerless to stop it and it is more prevalent than ever in pest control and unregulated. I cant even vote with my dollar where this is concerned and that makes me feel powerless. One day the disaster of it all will come to light and I believe it is the primary factor as to why we are ill, but I digress.

I have read that much olive oil is counterfeit or rancid and there is sugar water being sold to us with pure honey on the label.

I am trying to use more duck fat to cook with as I think it is an excellent saturated fat.

Saturated fats have been given a bad rap. They are very stable and when one eats to burn ketones as opposed to glucose for fuel they burn very clean and dont clog arteries. The amount of heart disease only skyrocketed after every one began consuming vegetable oils and they blamed it all on trans fats. We need cholesterol to manufacture Vitamin D the way nature intended by getting sunlight as D is a very important hormone.

But I cant do ketogenic anymore so I have to curb the fats or learn to enjoy the extra pounds. I dont know why but my body doesnt work the way it used to but I pay close attention to what it tells me.

Starch and protein consumed together becomes extra difficult for the body to digest than if eaten separately and I used to love meat and potatoes.

One thing I think we can agree on is that it's a virtual mine field out there as far as our food is concerned and that was true well before GM corn.

Everything is upside down and backwards so we have to question everything we have been told and this is why we have so many confused flat Earthers out there but its not their fault.

One of my favorite ways to supplement minerals outside of Himalayan or Celtic Salt is Starwest Botanicals Green Power Blend Organic. Im not going to tell you it tastes great because it doesnt but it is all food in powdered form from mostly veggies so you are getting the vitamins and minerals as close to the way nature intended and there is no horrible Kale in the mix.

Not only does Kale taste disgusting but it is high in thiocyanate, which is chemically very similar to cyanide as well as other heavy metals and this is goes to show we should always take a deeper look into foods that are billed as healthy.

You guys trust Mercola? I agree with him much of the time but its so difficult to find someone I agree with always. Good thing I can agree to disagree. He does have a good article on how you might want to approach calcium.

www.drmercola.com/dietary-supplements/the-alarming-truth-about-calcium-supplements/

Seems we should isolate our food groups, fast intermittently, and eat whole foods packaged by nature.

I still get a bit of inflammation immediately following a meal. I am hoping this will correct as I deal with the mold in the environment.

I cleaned the small HEPA filters again after running them for a week and they werent as filthy as when we had the recent new mold but they were visibly dirty.

Waking has been much better with the large unit running non stop, but there is still contamination in the house and as the day goes on it wears me down. UPS lost my other units so it might be a while. I really want to get a handle on the inflammation so I can taper Kratom even though I am grateful for it. I am so close and yet so far away.

My body is signalling me that I should probably have taken a break from this long winded rant and ramble at least 10 minutes ago, so I will leave you with the wise words uttered from the mouth of Apu Nahasapeemapetilon....

"Thank You. Come Again."

the calcification of biofilms and bartonella especially is different than the calcium we need to build bone and maintain osmolarity, calcium is in basic cbc diff i think . after seeing the fibrin and biofilm like stuctures in the scope i say we still need it . like babs stealing iron ...we need that to transport o2 ..it used to be in food . i noticed and maybe astro can confirm that high copper leads to emf sensitivity ?

and kudos chicken to spelling apu's name right .."good ghandi good curry lets hurry and eat !