Are abx Right For Chronic Lyme

Dr Jernigan has really gotten my wheels spinning. Coupled with Dr Rawls book, I'm wondering if abx treatment is, in most cases, the wrong approach.

I've been attracted to the holistic path for a while. And it is making more and more sense. Dr Jernigan spoke of seeing married couples where only one of the couple is symptomatic and the other never shows signs of being sick. It has been proven to be sexually transmitted. So, why aren't both sick?

Why is it that the disease, which was discovered less than 50 years ago, is on the rise so dramatically year after year?

Dr Rawls suggests that it is our current culture and environment. A 5000+ year old corpse was found frozen and preserved in ice. They found lyme in his body, yet besides the arrow in the back of the man's head, he looked in good shape.

Dr Jernigan says that it is strange thinking when a dr tells you that you are going to feel worse before you feel better. No where else in medicine do they use this train of thought. I feel that for a lot of people, the abx makes them even sicker. And the critters can learn to outsmart abx.

Dr Rawls has developed a virulent microbe scale that is rated between 1 & 10. 10 being the most virulent which would be Ebola. And 1 being the safest being our guy flora. He rates Lyme as being around 3 or 4 on the scale. Meaning, it isn't good, but a properly functioning immune system should be able to keep it in check.

If this true, why treat it with so many drugs for such long periods of time?

Just thinking out loud. I look forward to everyone's input.

Hi Hoagie. I can't remember where I found the study, if I find it again I'll link it but from what I saw 65% of Lyme patients respond favorably to antibiotic treatments.

Just wondering about the "It has been proven to be sexually transmitted." - can you provide a source for this? I know there was a study that found Borrelia in vaginal secretions and saliva but as far as I saw it's not proved to be transmitted to another person through sexual fluids or saliva.

Girlie said...
“Dr Jernigan says that it is strange thinking when a dr tells you that you are going to feel worse before you feel better. No where else in medicine do they use this train of thought.”

This happens with other infections as well - one being Syphilis - is known for the JH effects when treating with antibiotics.

I figured infections that resemble Borrelia would have this effect as well. I wonder how virulent Syphilis is. I understand that this effect will happen when treating. But, I have heard from a few doctors saying that the JH should be avoided if possible and is an indication of compromised detox pathways. I sited an article a couple weeks ago stating the dangers of prolonged and severe JH reactions.

I'm not saying abx isn't the right path for everyone. Just wondering if it's the right path for those wht suffer consistent and/or severe herxes.

Hoagie said...

Girlie said...
“Dr Jernigan says that it is strange thinking when a dr tells you that you are going to feel worse before you feel better. No where else in medicine do they use this train of thought.”

This happens with other infections as well - one being Syphilis - is known for the JH effects when treating with antibiotics.

I figured infections that resemble Borrelia would have this effect as well. I wonder how virulent Syphilis is. I understand that this effect will happen when treating. But, I have heard from a few doctors saying that the JH should be avoided if possible and is an indication of compromised detox pathways. I sited an article a couple weeks ago stating the dangers of prolonged and severe JH reactions.

I'm not saying abx isn't the right path for everyone. Just wondering if it's the right path for those wht suffer consistent and/or severe herxes.

I'm not sure we can totally avoid the herxheimer...but trying to control it is best we can do. I don't know - maybe some people don't herx....but the majority do.

Thing is - Does Dr. J. not realize that even herbs cause herxheimers...not just antibiotics?

Girlie said...
I'm not sure we can totally avoid the herxheimer...but trying to control it is best we can do. I don't know - maybe some people don't herx....but the majority do.

Thing is - Does Dr. J. not realize that even herbs cause herxheimers...not just antibiotics?

I chose to treat herbally after having a 2 month long herx following 7 days of minocycline. One reason I decided on herbs, specifically Buhner's protocol, was that I thought herbs would be much easier on my body and less likely to cause herxing and I could control the dosage and combinations. That has not proven to be true for me. I herx for long periods of time on tiny doses of antimicrobial herbs (like 3-6 drops 3x day).

The herxing (or maybe it's flares) don't always follow right on the heels of dosage increases or new herbs/ supplements being introduced. A lot of mine seems delayed days to weeks later. I seem to react heavily to cumulative changes the herbs must bring about in my internal dynamics.

If herxing is truly an indication of detox pathways not being open, I'm pretty sure all of my detox doors are barely cracked open, if open at all.

I seriously wish some solid research was done to determine why this happens to some of us and for those it does happen to would receive quick, effective medical intervention so that treatment can go on unhindered.

Are abx Right For Chronic Lyme? well dunno, but they seem to be for chronic TB.

i never liked when dr J starts talking about impregnating with energies the herbs and treatments. if i go that route believe me the best thing is u just turn into a monk. u buy a wooden hut in the forest, u pray all day , eat fish and berries. u either die or live but lyme would be the last thing u need to worry.

Girlie said...
“Dr Jernigan says that it is strange thinking when a dr tells you that you are going to feel worse before you feel better. No where else in medicine do they use this train of thought.”

This happens with other infections as well - one being Syphilis - is known for the JH effects when treating with antibiotics.

Not to mention cancer chemotherapy and surgery. Don't understand Jernigans position on this. There are a lot of treatments which are considered very unpleasant.

Psilociraptor said...

Not to mention cancer chemotherapy and surgery. Don't understand Jernigans position on this. There are a lot of treatments which are considered very unpleasant.

seriously, when i heard this guy talking about "positive energies channeled into some of his treatments" i stopped following what he says or writes. It makes no sense to me. I know he is like a lyme guru ... but i would not put him on same level with say Dr H from NY which really tries to do something for real, teams up with real researchers like Zhang & co, etc...

Lyme is a non lethal disease, excellent testbed for all sorts of people to make money on desperate souls. U cannot be in such a business too much with cancer treatment. Joe has cancer, Joe treats cancer with cat's claw. Joe dies. Joe's mom sues u for malpraxis. Joe's mom wins, u are out of business or go to jail. The next Joe with cancer will not be treated in your clinic... Case closed.

But with lyme ... u take a pill here, u take a pill there, u have good days, u have bad days, doctors have a good time treating u. Unless they really screw up and give u some toxic chemical that kills u, they can sell u cat's claw impregnated with "positive energies" for years ...

Deejavu said...
Hi Hoagie,

I think it's great that you are questioning different treatments and which ones "may" benefit you versus the treatments that "may" do harm. After I took Doxy which caused me to become even more sick I stopped the Doxy and started researching other treatment protocols (especially Dr. J.) after people started talking about him.

Here is one blog where Dr. Jernigan said that a "good" doctor will work on opening the pathways of elimination so one can detox:

Since the 1990's I have been one of the first doctors to take a stand against using severe Herxheimer reactions as guide and indication of "good" treatment.

When a doctor uses a natural or pharmaceutical antibiotic to kill some Lyme spirochetes in a person, there is often a resultant Jarisch- Herxheimer reaction (Herx) -- a worsening of the patient’s symptoms in response to the increased release of bacterial die-off toxins. The toxins are deposited into the bloodstream and are circulated throughout the body.

These toxins damage tissues in the body and are one of the primary reasons that symptoms can persist even after the actual crisis of Lyme and coinfections are gone; the toxin-damage can remain as an irritant in the tissues for years.

In truth, a severe Herxheimer reaction is a sign of poor elimination pathway drainage, poor organ and tissue support. All efforts should be made by your doctor to avoid these severe herx reactions!

The body of most chronic Lyme sufferers is a toxic dump to start with;

if the doctor does not get the pathways of elimination open and working, the body gets even more toxic when the bacteria begin to die and their toxins release.

Even with the most skillful treatment program a person might experience worsening of symptoms, however it is barbaric for a doctor to feel their job is just to administer antibiotics and let the chips fall where they may in the way of horrible herx reactions.

davidjernigan.blogspot.ca/2014/05/just-say-no-to-herx-symptoms.html

Denise

Hi Deejavu,

This is what makes most sense to me. I understand we are all different. But, I'm starting to think that for people who treat the infections for years without achieving remission would be best going another route.

Abx is like a bomb to the gut. The gut supposedly makes up 80 percent of the immune system. It can be a major contributor to leaky gut which causes all sorts of disorders. There is also the gut/brain connection. And for me, I think the abx are contributing to my deterioration and consistent brain inflammation.

It's a trial and error journey for us all. I just don't want people to get so sick from abx that they can't reach baseline again. The more I read, the more I read about the extraordinary healing capabilities of our body. But, we need to do what we can to support it in accomplishing the goal of optimum health. For me, abx seems like a step in the wrong direction.

I know abx works very well for some. But I truly feel if someone has been treating years on end with abx and not getting better, to try supporting your body naturally for a while.

Iceman’s 61 tattoos are organized into 19 different groups. Each group of tattoos is simply a set of horizontal or vertical lines. It is believed that the tattoos served a therapeutic or diagnostic purpose for the Iceman, because the tattoo groupings tend to cluster around the lower back and joints — places where Iceman was suffering from joint and spinal degeneration.

The tattoos may have demarcated the locations for acupuncture treatments, or perhaps the tattoos were the treatment. However, in the most recent tattoo inventory, researchers spotted a tattoo cluster on Iceman’s chest where there were no signs of an ailment. This newly discovered cluster could challenge prevailing theories about the purpose of the Iceman’s tats. But researchers were quick to point out that he may have suffered from other health issues that caused pain in the chest area but that weren’t recorded in the remains.

The majority of the over-fifty tattoos that cover his body are arranged in groups of one, two, three, four and even seven parallel lines that run along the length of his body. Examination by three separate acupuncture societies revealed that the many of the lines tattooed on Ötzi’s body are located on traditional Chinese acupuncture points. The crossed shaped tattoos found on his left ankle and knee correspond to acupuncture trigger points.

Nowadays, acupuncture is sought out for the relief of pain, where specific points are activated along channels known as meridians. Fifteen of Ötzi tattoos are located on the bladder meridian. This meridian is traditionally targeted for the relief of back pain. The crossed tattoo patterns found near his left ankle is considered in acupuncture texts as the “master point for back pain”. Physical examination of Ötzi body revealed that he suffered from severe knee, hip ankle and back issues as well as abdominal disorders.

insomniaaa said...

Girlie said...

Hoagie said...

Girlie said...
“Dr Jernigan says that it is strange thinking when a dr tells you that you are going to feel worse before you feel better. No where else in medicine do they use this train of thought.”

This happens with other infections as well - one being Syphilis - is known for the JH effects when treating with antibiotics.

I figured infections that resemble Borrelia would have this effect as well. I wonder how virulent Syphilis is. I understand that this effect will happen when treating. But, I have heard from a few doctors saying that the JH should be avoided if possible and is an indication of compromised detox pathways. I sited an article a couple weeks ago stating the dangers of prolonged and severe JH reactions.

I'm not saying abx isn't the right path for everyone. Just wondering if it's the right path for those wht suffer consistent and/or severe herxes.

I'm not sure we can totally avoid the herxheimer...but trying to control it is best we can do. I don't know - maybe some people don't herx....but the majority do.

Thing is - Does Dr. J. not realize that even herbs cause herxheimers...not just antibiotics?

Oh yes you can herx really bad from herbs. Some herb induced herxes are even more severe than abx induced ones.

It would be really easy to eliminate the herxheimer reactions altogether in 3 easy steps:

• identify and isolate the endotoxins
  
• hook the patient up to a dialysis machine
  
• filter out the endotoxins from the blood stream
  

DONE. Mission accomplished. Endotoxins successfully removed from the blood stream. No endotoxins in blood stream = no more herx reaction.

"Surely, you can't be serious."
"I am serious. And, don't call me Shirley."

In theory, that sounds interesting. But, after all these years, if this were a viable strategy, wouldn't some doctor or researcher have thought of this by now? Or, maybe they have? Thus far, I've never heard of it.

But, it did make me wonder about people who may be carrying Lyme, are asymptomatic, and donate blood. Or, is donor blood tested for pathogens? That seems cost-prohibitive.

Hoagie said...
Toxins aren't just in blood though. They accumulate in organs and fatty tissue as well. Or am I off base here?

Yes they do and then are released into the bloodstream

Deejavu said...
No, you are not off base. Toxins get stored in bones, joints, connective tissues, and the lymphatic system.

www.curebiome.com/how-and-where-your-body-stores-toxins/

And I'm surely serious but don't call me Shirley, LOL!
Denise

I noticed you are drinking Green Vibrance. I got this 3 weeks on the recommendation of a Vitamin Shoppe employee. I was asking about good detox supplements, and she took me to this and said it was excellent for detox. I drink this with stevia in the evenings. This, and my green smoothies in the morning, and a vegetable heavy diet, I have been having a lot of good days. 3 weeks ago I was pretty much house bound. This past Monday I went to an aquarium and the beach. Rested up yesterday. And today went to a park and worked in my garage.

Don't get me wrong, I am spent right now and my tinnitus has kicked into high gear, but the difference between 3 weeks ago and today is like night and day.

I read up on Green Vibrance and was surprised at the different strains of probiotics in it and the count as well. Plus it has S Boulardii. This stuff is like gold. This will be a part of my daily regimen until they stop making it or I keel over.