Lyme/forum veterans? Abx resistance, major concerns, questions...

Hello Deadman - glad you found us!

I’ll try and give you feedback/my thoughts on your questions/comments:

“1. Antibiotic resistance (and herb resistance??? some members claim herbs no longer work for them like they did in the start). The bugs are invasive and lyme and co just adapt to its environment.. Aren’t we actively contributing to this? We can never kill this thing 100%… do i have to treat this forever? what’s the point if it just gets smarter and better able to destroy us…? it seems akin to emptying water from a sinking boat with a bucket of water.”

Here’s my thoughts:

Antibiotic resistance is thwarted by taking more than one antibiotic at a
time. You should never (other than the acute stage ie recent tick bite) use just one antibiotic to treat chronic Lyme and coinfections.

Also I’ve read that these bacteria are slow growing ie several days to weeks for replication time compared to hours with other bacteria. This is supposed to minimize resistance.

“3. Remission seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Assuming you ever reach remission, ive read so many stories of it relapsing in 1,3,5,10,20 years down the track and only this time, its worse than the original inception and your bed bound or at least house bound - apparently i ve read its even harder to treat again because of abx/herb treatment in the past. Is this a valid concern? Am i just postponing the inevitable?”

Some people do relapse, yes. But hopefully you catch it right away before you have an onslaught of symptoms and can get it under control again.
It’s best to act on it right away.

You need to be prepared to dig in your heals and fight this.

This forum has been my lifeline.
I probably... no, not probably - I WOULD have given up by now if it wasn’t for this forum and the support these wonderful people have provided.
No one gets it ... until they get “it”

I was were ur at
Maybe worse .
Ur logic is why i went with bvt , iv abx and plasma rife ....
This is how some supposedly got well and gave me hope ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w0_kazbb_u also in eva sapi lastest paper bee venom kills all 3 forms and biofilm over 3 abx together

The forums and places like that feature self-selected patients who are often times dealing with trickier cases. These patients often have stronger severity of symptoms and long length of illness which can make recovery more challenging (not impossible). I understand that seeing so many struggling makes it seem like it is impossible to get better. But I know plenty of people who have regained their lives after having been very sick from these infections. Not everyone recovers all the way, but plenty regain a very high quality of life without relapse. Would it be nice to have numbers? of course. But for now much of it has to be pieced together anecdotally. As others said, when people get better they don't spend as much time in the lyme community online, people want to move on.

Can one get remission and then relapse? of course, but I think there are things we can do to increase our chances of sticking the remission. Some people claim BVT goes all the way and truly eradicates the infections. And like astroman says, if you treat for the infections and never see any improvement there may be other more important factors in play (mold, metals, viruses, parasites, etc).

Treatment is a lot of trial and error, if one treatment modality or strategy doesn't work, it's important to keep researching and trying different things.

In regards to point 2, if the body doesn't adapt it likely means there are other issues that need to be addressed. Dr Horowitz's book is a good resource because while it focuses on the infections it also goes through various other angles beyond the infections.

In regards to resistance, before I worry too much about how abx are administered in humans I'm more worried about the use of abx in livestock (supposedly 80% of abx are used in this arena). Are abx treatment ideal for lyme/coinfections? I believe no, but it's a solid tool that has helped many recover some level of quality of life, but of course patients should be aware of potential benefits and risks of this modality. Some cannot handle abx. But abx aren't the only way, and down the line I don't doubt we'll come up with much better therapies.

In regards to bailing water on a boat analogy. It makes sense, this is why my view is get it so there isn't too much water in the boat and more isn't splashing in (which can be buttressed by adopting certain lifestyle habits, managing stress, diet, sleep). Then once you are in a stable place, reduced water enough, intermittently do antimicrobial challenges to make sure things are in check.

Hi Deadman and welcome!

I have been healed for 13 years now (no relapses) and didn't use antibiotics (actually after 5 years of being chronic I was prescribed Doxy for 6 months but my stomach couldn't handle the Doxy so I stopped). I then used biological medicine and followed a protocol outlined in a book.

From my research as far as antibiotics they are everywhere including food, water, everywhere which is why I think people became resistant to antibiotics.

I don't believe in the theory of trying to kill all the lyme bacteria. I DO believe in restoring one's body back to the point when they were healthy so the body can kill off as much bacteria as it can.

I also believe one must address one's mind, body and spirit as they are all connected including addressing stress levels, etc.

Keep asking questions okay?
Denise

Deadman,

Glad you decided to join and bring questions to the table. You have gotten some exceptional responses already. Just wanted to offer some encouragement.

It’s good that you realize the complexity and gravity of what you’re dealing with. It’s a lot to grasp mentally and emotionally, with a host of unknowns. It can be overwhelming. You have what it takes to get through this. Try to pace yourself, as this may be a longer journey than a shorter one. Keep asking questions - the easy ones as well as the hard ones.

You will learn faster than you think and will rejoice over small victories. Progress may come swiftly and hold fast, or it may come slowly or with many ups and downs. No one knows ahead of time what their Lyme journey will be like. Hold on to hope, and be a good learner. The more you learn, the more tools you will have to help yourself recover. Best wishes!

DeadMan said...
Ive been lurking a bit and decided to join. I like the community here. Ive been treating this for 3 months so not long. Lately ive been struggling, very depressed about the whole situation, a bit nihilistic. I cant seem to answer these questions… and i fear for my future in living with these conditions. I am hoping some of the veterans can chime in on some major concerns of mine.

It sounds like you have a good understanding of this disease for only treating 3 months, maybe you've researched Lyme a lot or you know of other people who contracted this disease. But so far, you seem pretty well educated about this disease.

My thoughts on your nihilism/pessimism... Honestly, I would be a lot more confident and optimistic, because right now the science on Chronic Lyme Disease is very much leaning towards the disease being a chronic infection, not this PTSD crap that has being perpetuated by the CDC/IDSA. You have Dr. H working with the Tick-Borne Working Group, John Hopkins multiple studies coming out on persister cells and biofilms, Dr. Lee suing the CDC for suppressing his diagnostic test, a big case in Texas suing the CDC for conspiring with Insurance companies.

My personal opinion the truth is getting out, despite majority of Doctors still being dismissive of this disease being a chronic infection. If I look back what it was like when I first treated this disease(9 years ago), compared to now, a lot has happened since then. Our better understanding of biofilms and persister cells... New studies showing what particular essential oils/antibiotics work on persister cells, along with what herbs work on biofilms. More celebrities contracting Lyme, so more people are sympathetic towards Lyme patients.

Years ago LLMDs thought enzymes like Serrapeptase and Nattokinase worked well on biofilms... Now none of the top LLMDs like Dr. H or Dr. J are incorporating those in their protocols these days, my suspicion is that they never worked against biofilms due to never getting into the bloodstream, passed the gut... Now they're using Stevia, Lactoferrin, Xylitol and having much more success.

There's a lot to live for, considering the progression we've made in the past decade, I know it seems minor, but compared to what it was like living with this disease in 2000, 90s, or 80s... A lot of barriers have been passed and broken down!

But I'll be totally honest with you on remission, I think patients and even LLMDs misuse this word a lot. There's been articles that surfaced in past couple of years, that Yolanda Hughes said she was in remission, then a year passed, then she said she wasn't.

There's multiple patients that pop up from time to time on this forums and others, say they're in remission, claim this was the magic herb, supplement, protocol that cured them. Dude, this is the same stuff that was being said by AIDs patients over the years, even the mold issue that perpetuated with AIDs patients and even some celebrities like Greg Louganis that were scammed.

We need to sit back and look at the history of lyme, consider all the hyped protocols that have been posted on the forums over the years where in the end, that's all they were was hype: Vitamin C Salt protocol, MMS, Rife Machines, Zappers, hypothermia treatment, etc... A lot of the sketchy protocols Dr. K were using like ozone...

Question is, what is the actual percentage of patients that actually do reach remission? And I'm not talking about this crap where just because people are out and about living their normal daily lives, they think they're cured and remission. Because in my own state I'm in now, the only left for me is fatigue. I can go run 5 few miles, lift 300 pounds up on bench press, act like I'm perfectly normal, am I in remission? NO!!!!

Lets face it, it feels good when you tell people you're in remission from lyme, you're off all antibiotics and herbs, you have the magic protocol that worked for you and you have the cure that's going to help everyone!!!! You can definitely call it bragging, lol... It goes on a lot and I've seen a lot of it over the years, whether it's in forum posts, blog comments, or lyme patients calling into radio shows like Coast to Coast AM where they occasionally talk about Lyme. I remember when microbiologist Tom Grier was on C2C, some patient called in claming they were cured of lyme with the Vitamin C/Salt protocol.

Everyone has to question all of it and take it with a grain of salt.

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4089089
Kendal122 recently chime in on this forum saying he or she is in remisison, looks like this person has a history of chiming in every few years saying they're in remission, but here's the thing that some people missed, Kendal122 still says they do saunas...

I'm not knocking this person or others, hell I went out and bought some teasel root myself to try it, I'm just suggesting you have to question everything when it comes to Lyme, because there's a lot of lies and snake oil that has been perpetuated over the years...

DeadMan said...


1. Antibiotic resistance (and herb resistance??? some members claim herbs no longer work for them like they did in the start). The bugs are invasive and lyme and co just adapt to its environment.. Aren’t we actively contributing to this? We can never kill this thing 100%… do i have to treat this forever? what’s the point if it just gets smarter and better able to destroy us…? it seems akin to emptying water from a sinking boat with a bucket of water.

Yes, when it comes to both antibiotics and herbs, borrelia can adjust to it's environment and become very resistant. From my experience, borrelia can become resistant to even the strongest persister cell antibiotics like Dapsone. When I first got on that drug, I thought I was cured within a weeks time, best I ever felt when being on an antibiotic. As months passed, the great feeling I was getting while being on Dapsone eventually passed and fatigue began to come back. I've been on and off Dapsone for a total of two years I'd say. But it's obvious that the drug doesn't work effectively as it once did in earlier stages.

This goes for many of the antibiotics I've tried over the years. As Girlie explained, to combat this resistance, you must take more than one antibiotic and "rotate," and pulse them as well. As you progress with this disease, you'll learn what works and what doesn't when comes to treating. Yes, everybody's body is different and may respond to different types of herbs and antibiotics differently due to the strain of borrelia they have, as well as coinfections, and biofilms... But there's some strategies and techniques that always seem to work when combating chronic lyme when you've plateaus, the recent breakthrough with biofilms busters has helped with the antibiotic resistance!!!

I remember when I started studying this disease in the earlier stages of treatment, some people were saying that the borrelia in the Eastern region of the US is a lot more aggressive than the borrelia strains out West. This is what you're up against, different strains and different behavior, some borrelia goes straight to their joints for some people, some it's mainly neurological.

DeadMan said...


2. Buhner asserts the treatment philosophy of Protecting endothelium structures, cytokine modulation, specific symptom treatment (etc etc) and killing bugs until the immune system is able to control the infection on its own. How much merit is there to this? theoretically it sounds great, but what if the body just doesn’t adapt… doesn’t that mean we have to treat this thing forever until we’re dead? not to mention the decline in life quality and our contribution to abx resistance into some super hectic untreatable bug (since we’ve exhausted all viable abx)? what about the cumulative damage to vital organs? or even the production of cancer from Co?

and in the flip side, lets say you do get to a point where your body controls the infection and you can say happy days - lyme and co adapt to its environment, so shouldn’t it still be able to overcome the body by whatever means it uses? All possibilities point to failure and disease in the long term.

Man I have to say I take a lot of stuff Buhner says with a grain a salt, this is the same guy who says biofilms are just a hysteria in the lyme community and you don't have to address biofilms because they are natural...

Here's a fact for you "Around 550,000 fatalities each year are attributed to these biofilms in the US"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5821197/applying-tea-tree-oil-extracts-surgical-tools-kill-deadly-bugs.html

The truth is, biofilms are the reason why bacteria is evolving and is so hard to kill, reason why surgical instruments are so hard to clean, reason why MRSA and Tuberculosis are becoming antibiotic resistant and hard to treat.

In Buhner's world, he doesn't feel like addressing this new revelation and change his protocols around, so he just says biofilms are a natural thing.

Stephen Buhner on Biofilms said...


"I am not a big fan of the biofilm hysteria that is common among the lyme community right now. ALL bacteria form biofilms. It is just a grouping of bacteria together in one location and the formation of a kind of rigid structure, similar to coral formation in the oceans, that they use to protect themselves. This is just ONE of a great many mechanisms bacteria use to protect themselves from immune responses or antibacterial substances and so on. It is no more dangerous or important than the bacterial ability to use efflux pumps to remove antibacterial substances from their cells or to use the immune system itself to hide from assault. Most herbal medicines are effective against biofilm formations just as are most immune systems. A biofilm may slow down effectiveness of immune response or herbal antibacterials but it does not stop them. It is not the terminator of bacterial protection. Biofilms have been around for eons and plants and immune systems have developed mechanisms for dealing with them. I would not worry about them as of being of particular importance in becoming healthy.

Buhner doesn't have a lab, he goes by what he reads in studies and what he knows through trial and error with herbs on lyme patients, a lot of his ideology comes from guessing.

Look, there's even LLMDs that are stubborn, claim to be trained and use protocols by ILADs, my old LLMD in Saginaw Michigan, who has an ILADs certificate hanging in his office... Guess what, he hasn't adapted with new protocols to address the biofilms or persister cells. Human beings are stubborn, despite having a PhD and claming they're a Doctor. It really makes me wonder how many of these supposed lyme literate doctors haven't adapted to the new persister cell and biofilm protocols being used by top ILADs Doctors? I bet it's the majority of LLMDs...

I wonder how long it's going to take for the majority of Scientists and Doctors to change their beliefs on Chronic Lyme Disease after the truth comes out that this is a chronic infection?

Here's the thing, do I still think Buhner is a very intelligent guy and helps a lot of lyme patients, yes, but not everything he says is from the Lyme Bible and etched in stone.

What has been revealed in the John Hopkins studies is now being translated into work done by Dr. J, Dr. H, and a lot of lyme patients are having success with Stevia and Dapsone, Lactofferrin/Xylitol with Dapsone/Daraprim. Basically any of the new presister cells drugs with the new biofilm busters.

You don't want to use the toxic persister cell antibiotics? Fine, give the persister cell essential oils a try from the John Hopkins study. I know there's patients out there having success with them and stevia/xylitol used together.

I like putting a few drops of essential oils clove in a capsule filled with GSE, Cats Claw... Then separately using Stevia and CBD oil together. Been working pretty good!

DeadMan said...


The statistical significance of people never getting better, despite treatment. there are so many stories of people that just haven’t gotten better.. and not many stories of people that have. is it a case of people just dont document their recovery and there are lots of people that ‘go on to live a happy normal life’? or is it truly statistically significant that people just dont recover fully again?

A restoration of lie quality just seems so… out of reach
it makes me want to give up.. and its only the beginning for me.

I know it's tough, it's tough knowing that majority of lyme patients are having a tough time getting better. My suspicion is what happens to an American population that already is obese, overweight, diabetic, doesn't exercise, and then comes down with a chronic disease.

It's a scary thought... I'm not trying to put all the blame on people's preexisting conditions, but lets face it, like they said in Under Our Skin, antibiotics and herbs are just the bullets, you must get off your ass to fight this disease, this means excising, eating healthy(gluten free, high vegetable/meat protein diet, banning all sugar and carbs)... Very similar to a Cancer diet...

Honestly though, after we've learned about biofilms and persister cells, this is a big stepping stone for the lyme community. I know these new findings work, because I've seen them work incredibly for me since the majority of symptoms are gone and I can obviously see what works and what doesn't.

After I told one of the patients that was asking for help because 18 months of antibiotics weren't working, that I've been in treatment for 8-9 years.... They remarked I've been doing it wrong! lol... Then I went to mention others who took up to 20 years to reach remission like Amy Tan, who went all herbal.

You can read the article here https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4075808

SeanIRL said...


If you're taking antibiotics for 8 or 9 years, you're doing it wrong. 18 months is more than enough to ascertain if treatment is working.

The point I'm getting at is, even if you explain the truth about how resilient this disease is and how long it can take to treat, you have new Lyme patients that won't even believe you... lol

After I debated with SeanIRL for awhile, giving my own advice, another post popped up by Mark FW, saying he's leaving because one, he couldn't deal with the advice I was giving SeanIRL and second he supposedly has the cure that's been curing 1000 people and no one's been listening to him.....

So yes Deadman, this is what you're up against dealing with Lyme Disease and even the community within it...

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4082250

Mark FW said...
One, I cannot handle all, what I feel, is bad advice being passed around. Second.. the Lyme culture is a club in itself. I no longer hold to the beliefs talked about on this forum nor the Lyme Literate community The championed LLMD's talked about are in many cases telling us what we want to hear. Many I'm sure well meaning but are playing wack-a-mole with your body. Therefore out of respect for the forum, it's best I don't participate.

People are getting cured on ACC. 100's if not 1,000's of them. All the Moderators are healed or healing.

Charlie55 said...


18 months isn't a very long time when you're talking chronic lyme, especially if you're just treating with oral antibiotics. I've been treating for 8-9 years with oral antibiotics, I didn't see much breakthrough until after 2-3 years of treatment... Inflammation kept getting worse, so did a lot of my other symptoms. As the old saying goes, everyone gets worse before they get better when treating chronic lyme.

If you've contracted viruses, along with a few other coinfections, it can take some time for these viruses and coinfections to die down when your immune system is on overload.

Mark FW said...


Case is point, several weeks ago someone posts that they've been on abx for 2 years, no improvement and no herx. Many jumped in and told him that 2 years was not enough time. Please, think about this.

I know there's a lot of patients that don't like me on this board, because I blatantly reveal a lot of truth and lay it all out about Lyme Disease. If a lot of the information I tell isn't the truth, then have a debate about it and explain what I'm saying is wrong and why, don't just have a hissy fit and say you're leaving the forum because of it.

I told Mark FW I'd love to hear more about the 1,000s of patients being cured by ACC and please link to the articles or forums posts for a little bit more proof, guess what it never happened! How many times I've seen this happen is in the hundreds of times.....

Truth is, after studying other odd topics throughout the years.... The metallic craft flying around our planet, lol, human beings sometimes don't want to be told the truth so they zone out the reality of it, and just live in their own beliefs and bubble. How many lyme patients and even LLMDs do this with their own treatment protocols, then never adapt? Always keep an open mind at all times... And when you're wrong, admit it, so the truth is revealed. I know there's plenty of times I've been wrong about Lyme and had to adjust, changing my protocols around and adapting. Never get stuck with thinking that one particular lyme doctor or patient is right about this disease, listen to everyone's theories and come to your own conclusions... But definitely hold those that have been dealing with this disease for a number of years with more integrity than others, what I'm getting at is LLMDs like Dr. J and Dr. H... The experience and knowledge from these Doctors is incredible, please listen to what they have to say!
https://youtu.be/-2b4qsomnke

Hope this helps Deadman!

And I must say, I'm so glad I chose life instead of just giving up! To me, heaven is on earth, for all we know, all there is is blankness afterwards. I like to believe in an afterlife, but to me, I make most of what gift that has been given to me as a living organism on this planet, I don't count on living life in the afterlife, counting on some type of fairy tale we have no proof of. There's people that are born without sight, arms and legs... Stuff that makes lyme disease look very less significant!!! I know the first few years are hell, dealing with chronic pain and constant fatigue, but after progressing with this disease and the inflammation/fatigue begins to go down, life is so much easier to deal with. There's a lot to live for, to me the best things in live are free, the people and environment around me. I love the Outdoors, so just being able to get out, walk around, witness wildlife, fish, hunt, exercise... To me the other materialistic stuff is just that, materalistic garbage, sadly majority of human beings don't look at it that way. They have to have a big house, sports car, live in a tropical environment etc...

Bring on the snow Snow Mister, I find every season out of the year beautiful!!!
https:// https://youtu.be/_sglpna_ick

Stay strong and keep fighting, we're all in this together!

Whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger, just like this darn bug borrelia. I'm going to adapt to it's weaknesses and go after it with everything I've got. Fighting chronic illnesses isn't just a physical thing with antibiotic drugs, eating healthy, and exercising, but also a mind game. Become a Lyme Warrior and keep fighting this disease my friend, it'll be well worth it in the long run!

I'm living proof that just by what I write, that the recent biofilm busters and persister cell antibiotics/herbs work. The majority of lyme patients can't keep the train of thought like I do, let a lone write long paragraphs and sentences like this. When I got on biofilm busters and persister cell antibiotics that Dr. H has been using, it's like a cloud has been lifted off my head, just as Dr. H's wife described. I'm not bragging, I'm just trying think of ways to convince people that the new protocols do work and more patients should be trying them. Again, you can't tolerate antibiotics and the unwell feeling of their toxicity, try the other persister cell herbs John Hopkins mentioned with biofilm busters like Stevia or Xylitol/Lactoferrin.

It's great to see that more biofilm posts are starting to pop up now, along with persister cell posts and comments... I really suspect if I knew what I know now, had used these persister cell drugs and biofilm busters in earlier stage of treatment compared to later, it probably could of cut my treatment time in half, all those years I wasted on protocols and supplements that never worked... There's a lot better direction now than years ago, but you still have to sort through all the old information and false claims of cures, it's not easy! Just like the fake news through corporate media... lol Who might I add still says lies about chronic lyme disease, as well as other things! Time to wake up human beings! You can thank the internet for the truth, which might I add a lot of Doctors hate, when you bring them new studies that they aren't aware of, makes them look dumb while making you look more intelligent then they are.

I brought the John Hopkins study to the Saginaw LLMD in Michigan 4-5 years ago, guess what, he still hasn't adapted to the new protocols in 2018, going into 2019. Dr. L, if you're reading this and too scared of using Dapsone, then try other persister cell antibiotics in the John Hopkins Study that have a less half life and toxicity... Don't keep using the same antibiotics and drugs that aren't working, haven't been working, expecting different results each time, it's moronic and egotistical. "Adapt or Die!" I hate to use those words, this is metaphorically speaking of course, but this motto works in all walks of life, considering the movie Moneyball!
https://youtu.be/ugn5ad5p2nu

Egoes get in the way majority of the time! And then there's corruption, CDC/IDSA...

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 12/17/2018 6:32:21 PM (GMT-7)

Quin said...

and doesn't say what meds they took to get better. Yeah, I'm skeptical of posts like that too.

Yep, I mean you have to be skeptic, considering the amount of lyme patients that have been saying they've been cured with the vitamin c/salt protocol, MMS, and rife machines...

Charlie Sheen went on TV claiming his Doctor had the cure for AIDs... We all like to think we're special and have the cure for these horrendous disease and disorders...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/charlie-sheen-and-the-danger-of-false-cures/

I wouldn't be surprised if one day it's announced that basically there's no cure for Lyme Disease, just like AIDs. That those that have been claming this and that, have basically been a little dishonest. I would not be surprised at all...

Quin said...

You misunderstand how the antibiotic resistance works.

If you take amoxicillin, the bacteria will stop building a cell wall.
If you take doxycycline, the bacteria will lower its metabolism.
If you take valproate, the bacteria will use an ion pump to restore homeostasis.

To kill the bacteria, I had to take all three at the same time. Rotating antibiotics does not work, the bacteria will survive any one antibiotic.

Yes you're "also" right, antibiotic resistance is also due to the cellular wall, metabolism, and homeoastasis as well, addressing the different forms of borrelia with different antibiotics is important!

But here's the thing Quinn, if LLMDs and patients have been taking up to three drugs addressing these three elements you've mentioned, why aren't patients been cured yet??? Why aren't you cured yet???

Antibiotic resistance is a lot more complicated than just that, especially when it comes to Lyme Disease due to coinfections, multiple antibiotics are also addressing mycoplasma, bartonella, etc... What you just said has been repeated over and over again by lyme patients and lyme doctors decades ago.

Antibiotic resistance is also due to biofilms!

Studies...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12195733
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20149602
https://aac.asm.org/content/62/8/e00320-18

"Are Biofilms to Blame for TB Drug Resistance?"
https://www.jove.com/blog/research/are-biofilms-to-blame-for-tb-drug-resistance/

Jove Article said...
A tuberculosis biofilm can tolerate more than 50 times the minimal therapeutic dose of anti-tuberculosis drugs.

Which I noticed you're having a hard time understanding in your previous posts you've made...

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4089438

Quin said...


People are very worried about biofilms, but it seems that small molecules can diffuse through the biofilms and kill the bacteria anyway. Once the bacteria are dead, the biofilms will dissolve eventually. This does result in a quite delayed herx though.

People seem to be excessively focused on "biofilm busters" but in my experience it really doesn't matter that much.

If that's not enough for you, here's a study done by Dr. Sapi that will eventually be published

"Biofilm & Spirochetes Found in Dead Woman after 16 Years of Multiple Antibiotics"
https://youtu.be/_gojg7qzomw?t=12m15s

I also suspect that borrelia may be strain and species specific to certain drugs, just as Babesia might be. The parasite drugs that we thought worked well against Babesia, come to find out are not working well at all(Yale Study.) And I remember there's studies that certain strains of Babesia respond well to certain parasite drugs, while others do not. I suspect borrelia is the same way considering there's 52 strains of borrelia, considering what wikipedia said, there's probably a lot more...
https://news.yale.edu/2018/11/29/yale-scientists-develop-new-system-study-emerging-tickborne-disease

This would explain why some with Babesia do well with mepron, others do not. As well as why some [patients do well with Flagyl and others do not with borrelia.

I can't imagine the same antibiotics use on borrelia burgdorferi, work the same on borrelia miyamotoi, a different species all together...

Quin said...

Rotating antibiotics does not work

Ummm.... Anytime lyme patients plateau, that's what the top LLMDs have been doing for a long time, rotating antibiotics. Ever notice how you herx badly in the beginning for the first few days everytime you rotate to a different antibiotic/protocol, that's because the rotation doesn't allow borrelia to comfortable in the environment it's been in...

Rotating antibiotics does work!

I'm not sure how you would expect to get cured treating with one specific protocol and not rotating different antibiotics. But hey, I do know of a "supposed" LLMD in Keego Harbor Michigan, that just sticks his patients on minocycline for the rest of their life after a few months of aggressive antibiotics, I wonder how those lyme patients are doing? And I'm sorry, I'm not giving a LLMD a star five rating just because they give us antibiotics longterm, we need to move past that mentality...

Quin said...


People seem to be excessively focused on "biofilm busters" but in my experience it really doesn't matter that much.

And again Quin, I have to emphasize on this statement you made, what would make you come to this conclusion if you aren't cured of Lyme? I'm confused....

Quin said...


Stevia doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. It doesn't even get absorbed from the gut.

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4082676&p=2

You also claim that Stevia doesn't absorb in the gut... Hate to say it, you just seem to be repeating things without trying stuff yourself or considering the fact that one of the top LLMDs, Dr. H uses stevia with dapsone in his own protocols.

Taking whole leaf Stevia underneath the tongue, holding 15-30 seconds, then swallowing can help the absorption, just like Vitamin B-12.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 12/17/2018 11:35:46 PM (GMT-7)

BookWyrm said...
DeadMan- I want to address the whole remission and relapse issue, because that is currently where I am at. I want to start off by saying that sierraDon is right-support group pages are not always the best place to find people in remission. I'm sorry to say that after I got in remission I rarely got on. This is probably because we are like soldiers returning home after the war -- after fighting for so long we don't want to keep thinking about what we went through, we just want to focus on transitioning to civilian life.

^^^^^^^ Yes... this.

I think I have some PTSD issues going on.... I’m not sure I’ll be very active on the forum once I’m done.
For my sanity. It may be a trigger.

Charlie said:
"I think it is too Girlie, totally agree, but I have to question it when there's hundreds of other lyme patients that have said they've been cured by Vitamin C, MMS, and Rife Machines over the years, but never were. Again, I went out and bought some teasel root to mix it in with my essential oil in some veggie capsules, so part of me believes Kendal on teasel root, including Buhner.

It's just hard to believe a chronic lyme patient is cured with "one" single herb and just using sauna therapy, when there's Doctors using multiple antibiotics and multiple biofilm busters to address this chronic infection. Just as Quin said, you have to use multiple antibiotics to address antibiotic resistance. I think it's more likely that Kendal still uses it on a daily basis, including saunas to hold the infection back so Kendal goes on with her day to day life."




Charlie - You need to read her story again - she isn't claiming she was cured with 'one single herb and just using sauna therapy' . Kendal said she was treated with abx on and off for 3 years, then teasel root and sauna...for two more years. She has come back several times to post that she is still doing well.
No reason to doubt it.

Here is one of her posts.

"Yes Cheezhead, I got lyme in 2005 wasn't treated intill 2007 that's when i joined this board. then i was treated with abx for 3 years on and off meds. also the treatment included co-infections. After the abx, i went on teasel root and i used my infared sauna 3 times aweek. i would do this for 2 months then i would stop for 2 weeks and see how i felt. I did this for two years. and know i'm feeling great. it was a long road, but it paid off. there was times i never thought it would ever end. Meaning the pain and spaceyness. - "

Charlie - you said: "I'm sorry, does that supposed to mean that people are being cured, because they're no longer in a support group or on a forum? I've heard this many times over on Lyme Net, again, I think some of this stuff is being repeated by lyme patients over and over again then it becomes sort of a comfort thing to make people feel better about dealing with this disease, but in actuality no one has proof to how many people are reaching remission, it's just talk without proof Girlie... But it sounds good on paper doesn't it"


No,of course not.... it's just an explanation why there aren't a lot of people on the forums who are in remission. They are back to living their lives...making up for lost time...had enough of forums....

Charlie - do you not know people who have recovered...are in remission?? You must know some?

I do. (And I'm not talking about forum members...either.)

...I live in a fairly small town on the West Coast of Canada.....and I know several...talked to them personally.