Lyme testing

Has anyone ever heard of the provocation test? I heard it from dr neil nathan who is big on treating mold, but hes also exploring the lyme realm. He was wondering if like mold or any other type of toxin example being candida, we could provoke die off using antibiotics or whatever, and then see if the bacteria shows up in urine or however its believed to be excreted. I really dont know much about testing though, so if this is a dumb idea, let me know haha. I just thought it made sense.

Post Edited (KYLEb23) : 3/11/2019 8:36:00 PM (GMT-6)

Hi, KYLEb23,

Not a silly question! Many doctors use provocations. They are useful when the things being tested for are things that can live or be stored somewhere other than the blood or urine. Bacteria, viruses, fungi, mycotoxins, and heavy metals often hang out in the organs, tissues, and bones, so they would not appear in a blood or urine test unless they have been mobilized (stirred up) and/or are being detoxed effectively (eliminated).

As a provocation for heavy metals, you'll be asked to take some chelator pills and use an infrared sauna to pull some of those toxins into circulation, so that the testing can find them. If you pull them into circulation, though, then you might feel very sick, and if you are not eliminating things (detoxing) quickly and efficiently, then you could re-absorb the toxins in new places and get new or worsened symptoms. I am curious about my heavy metals load, but my doctors always have said I'm not strong enough yet or detoxing well enough to handle a metals provocation.

Another form of provocation is to take big doses of an antimicrobial treatment (herbal or pharmaceutical antibiotics) to see if it produces a herx. If so, then you likely have the microbes that substance targets, meaning you have a better idea which infections you're dealing with and an idea of whether a particular treatment is effective for it. This also can make you more likely to test positive for the microbes (see all the post on here from people who test positive for Lyme only AFTER starting treatment).

In Nathan's latest book he talks about doing provocations before a urine test for mold (mycotoxins). This is especially important for mycotoxin urine tests because they are so expensive. Mycotoxins don't hang out in the urine unless your body is actively processing them (i.e. they have been mobilized AND are being detoxed properly), so a provocation is recommended, using binders and sauna before the urine tests, to ensure some mycotoxins will be detectable. Someone would not do a provocation if they were having potentially dangerous symptoms, like psychosis or seizures, or if their system were very sensitive and could not handle a worsening of symptoms. (Nathan is adamant about not making people feel worse.) And of course you can treat suspected mold toxicity without a positive test. Because there's so much symptom overlap with bartonella, it can be nice to know if mold is involved or not, since mold recovery can require a massive change to your residence, whereas bartonella recovery does not!

For candida, I suppose one way to do a provocation could be to take a bunch of anti-candida herbs like pau d'arco and see if you have intestinal rebellion. I'm sure folks on this forum or elsewhere online have ideas for that. It's a useful question, since candida symptoms are so numerous and varied. By most lists I have read, everyone I know is overflowing with candida. ;) This is not a provocation, but some people advocate spitting a bunch of morning spit into a glass of water and seeing if it forms strands after a few minutes (high candida load) or dissolves (not a high candida load) as a way to test for candida. Fortunately I think stool tests for candida are reliable without any sort of provocation beforehand.

Good luck!

Hey girlie- no ive never been tested, just came acrossed some info and thought if it could apply to lyme just out if curiosity.

Saraeli- have you been exposed to mold? Thats what im focusing on at the moment. Im trying antifungals and binders so the neil nathan way which is nice because im feeling better without assistance from a doctor which shoemaker protocol requires.

No i dont think i have lyme. But as far as i know i have bartonella. I grew up with a lot of pets with fleas, but i think after a stressful point in my life is when it became undormant. I havent had the test to prove it, but i have many telling symptoms like sore foot soles, constant random twitching all over, some anxiety and depression, and by far my worst symptom being depersonalization. Oh and long purple stretch marks that come and go on my inner thighs.