HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

difference between herxing and exhaustion/PEM after sauna/epsom salt bath

Support Forums
>
Lyme Disease
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 4/10/2019 2:47 PM (GMT 0)
Hi all! simple question - see heading.
Im on buhner babs protocol now and trying some EO - I'm trying to get more detox with all this.

I started again some sauna and epsom salt bath, but again, I am faced with a confusion that has already appeared in previous treatments and without them too.

I can't tell if it's herx or exhaustion, after do sauna or epsom salt bath. Almost every time after this process Im pretty tired, my CFS is worse for 2-3 days and feelings of inflammation are bigger.when I did this sessions...

I don't know if it does harm me, that make better... I've been watching this problem it for the past three years.
it's so hard to discern!

Anyone same problems with crashes after sauna and hot epsom bath?
Thanks, Martin
Posted 4/10/2019 3:39 PM (GMT 0)
Hi MartinK,

I think it's great that you are removing toxins from your body. I don't think what you are feeling is a herx because technically a "herx" is when the bacteria die and leave over toxins. When the toxins stay in the body one feels a herx according to my research.

If I were you I wouldn't do the sauna right now, just the baths but that's up to you as only you know how you feel. Many people I know who started off with the epsom salt baths usually feel much worse before they feel better. That is because high amount of toxins in your body. Detox baths are a cumulative effect (the more you do the better you feel).

Make sure the bath water is warm (not hot) and only stay in for about 10 minutes. Slowly build up each day until you can tolerate staying in longer.

I do use hot water but I have been detoxing forever (at least 14 years) and I believe detoxing plays a huge part in keeping me healed. I did use a sauna but that was about 6 months or so after I started the baths.

Hope this helps and keep up the good work!
Denise
Posted 4/10/2019 3:48 PM (GMT 0)
Have you looked into the possibility of mast cell activation syndrome? For some people, the heat of a bath or sauna - combined with the toxins mobilized, especially - can create a histamine reaction that makes fatigue and inflammation flare. Some find that remedying a mast cell issue can be simple, like supplementing quercetin and switching to a low-histamine diet.

If mast cells don't seem to be your problem, then I would recommend going more slowly with treatment or changing your detox methods. Perhaps a sauna is too intense for you, but dry brushing, lemon water, Alka-Seltzer Gold, coffee enemas, gentle yoga, and/or lymphatic massage would do the trick. It does sound like you are herxing, and have a lot of toxins circulating, so I'm glad you are devoted to detoxification, elimination, etc.

Good luck! I know how frustrating it is when the things that might help us overall make us feel so much worse.
Posted 4/10/2019 6:06 PM (GMT 0)
Hey, thanks a lot all!
Im trying detoxing with many methods - lot of vegetables, water with lemon, active charcoal, red root, chlorella, kieselguhr and start milk thristle next week! ;-) Oh...and sure - yoga makes me good in small series.

I am always unhappy when something is happening and I dont know what it means and whether to continue doing so...this make frustrations a lot.

Now I do intense HBOT sessions - hope this helps a lot with detox and lymph circulations.

I'll tell you why I'm worried about sauna and epson bath - I try not to increase the body heat. Many days I feel inside like I burn... crazy... like massive inflammation.
This thing with MCAS sounds good! It is true that I am trying to prepare to histamine diet and keto diet. Next week I go for testing histamine and DAO. I still don't know how to discover MCAS well with certainty...

Oh, please - how hot water in epsom bath? Im use water often around 36-37°C

Thanks, Martin
Posted 4/10/2019 6:24 PM (GMT 0)
Testing for MCAS is tricky because over 200 biochemical mediators involved, and because some of the reactions are only measurable for a short time after the reaction occurs (so, chances are, not the moment your blood is being drawn). Apparently the most useful tests are total serum tryptase, chromogranin A, plasma heparin or histamine with cold centrifuge, urine N-methylhistamine, urine PGD2, leukotruene E4, and antibodies to IgE. For me, it was simple: I realized that when I ate fermented foods, I got intense brain fog. :-/

If you determine that MCAS is an issue, then many of us on this forum have it and can offer simple treatment suggestions.

Another thought is that the sauna is releasing heavy metals, so you might want to rotate in different binders in addition to the chlorella and charcoal, like bentonite clay or modified citrus pectin.

Sounds like you are doing lots of good things! Good luck!
Posted 4/10/2019 8:46 PM (GMT 0)
Traveler (prior forum Moderator extraordinaire) often talked about starting the detox methods...slowly...one or two at a time and building... as it can cause a worsening of a herx...by flushing out a high load of toxins out too fast.


And as 1000Daisies mentioned - not everyone tolerates the epsom salt baths.

If you do try again...this time start with a foot bath only...
Posted 4/10/2019 8:47 PM (GMT 0)
Re: MCAS - I'm thinking that I may have it...as when I take the Quercetin it helps some with my symptoms.
I need to take it regularly...and see if I can ward off the symptoms...rather than taking it when I'm suffering.


So, trying the Quercetin may be a good option...before doing anything pharmaceutical.
Posted 4/11/2019 12:13 PM (GMT 0)

MartinK said...
I'll tell you why I'm worried about sauna and epson bath - I try not to increase the body heat. Many days I feel inside like I burn... crazy... like massive inflammation.
This thing with MCAS sounds good! It is true that I am trying to prepare to histamine diet and keto diet. Next week I go for testing histamine and DAO. I still don't know how to discover MCAS well with certainty...

Oh, please - how hot water in epsom bath? Im use water often around 36-37°C

Thanks, Martin

Hi Martin, 36-37c is about 98 degrees Fahrenheit (normal body temperature): 37°C x 9/5 + 32 = 98.6°F so I don't think your bath water is too hot.

As far as feeling like you are burning inside it is possible that you may have high ammonia levels. One of the toxins left over after bacteria die is ammonia and when the levels are too high it can cause that burning feeling as well as other problems.

I had high ammonia levels and what worked for me was taking Dr. Jernigan's Neuro-Antitox formula (there are 4 formulas and I took the CNS/PNS one). Some people suggest taking yucca root but that doesn't cross over the blood brain barrier (BBB). I never tried yucca root.

Hope this helps,
Denise
Posted 4/11/2019 12:43 PM (GMT 0)
deejavu

what was your dosing of the neuro antitox and how many times a day did you take it? also for how long?
Posted 4/11/2019 1:41 PM (GMT 0)
Hi physedgirl,

I took the Neuro-Antitox over 13 years ago and looking at my notes I took a total of 90 drops a day (30 drops 3 times a day). I believe I took it for a total of 6 months (perhaps longer).

I found out that the dosing instructions changed and it now states to take 20 drops 3 times a day. I have no idea why it was changed. I know a lady who went to Hansa many years ago and her liver was shutting down from extremely high levels of ammonia and Dr. Jernigan had her take about 300 drops (maybe more) a day before he would treat her for lyme.

Hope this helps,
Denise
Posted 4/11/2019 5:49 PM (GMT 0)
Hey all - you are awesome! Thanks for many experiences...
I'm almost confused where to respond! smile

For me is question of "herxing" one of the the worst to good recognize. I often read about the crazy reactions of some of you here...but in my case is all little bit hard to understanding. My symptoms are still...constantly...and sometimes after trying some treatments/detox methods...or when I have unexpected load - it is like spinning the VOLUME controller...just better or worse - symptoms still the same. Therefore it is so difficult to discern something...what works or not.

Now - 2 time trying Buhner babs protocol - first time with HBOT sessions - all worse a lot, now second time...the same process (only with add Red Root with all) - little bit worse for one day and now Im on maximum doses and I have no problem.

I tried Quercetin in past...but not see difference - maybe it was to short period or small dose, I do not remember, but now its in plan with histamine diet...and keto---no carb diet.

Please, is some DIY ammonia test? It's definitely one of the things I didn't try to focus.

In the past I was for example in Belgium to visit dr. De Meirleir (he was want me on persister - Im affraid because another atbx makes me worse) and he found inflammation in my gut - high KYNA and PGE2 ...I was long time on Normix with Mesalazine but without result for my inflammation. But digestion has been working great since then, so at least something...smile

If someone want to look, here is some testing from Belgium - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rp8b93jp8g5sv0w/AAAUm3jF8NLonNaSnrrHl-fba?dl=0

Hope link works!

Thanks a lot! Martin
Posted 4/11/2019 6:26 PM (GMT 0)
Hey Martin.

I understand what you mean about symptoms. My symptoms didn't change a whole lot whether I was taking abx or not taking them...except for the obvious herxes here and there. my symptoms have always waxed and waned. (mostly waxed)
But after the herxes...I never had a noticeable improvement.
I have had a large number of symptoms...and tracking them all was difficult. (high 30's)

The one thing that did help me feel better was epsom salt baths... but not very hot...just comfortable.
I would get a few hours of relief...I don't know if it was taming a herx....or not. maybe just the warmth of the water and the magnesium (if it does absorb) just made me feel better...

Early on I think the burbur and pinella helped. I would take it....if no relief...then awhile later I'd take it again....and then again....generally by the third dose I was okay....but this would span over a few hours...and I can't say with 100% certainty that it tamed a herx....or if my symptoms just waned...or a combo of both.


But, the Quercetin does seem to be helping me some. But, I am also further along with treatment and have less symptoms...so it's easier to recognize/discern.

I take 2 caps of the Quercetin at a time...I can check the dosage a little later on.

I had my ammonia tested through Quest Labs. I don't know a do-it-yourself test you can do.
Mine was 54 and 55 - first time it was over range...and second test...the range changed and I was in-range.

nonetheless, my regular Dr. said those numbers are not high and shouldn't be causing symptoms.
My Lyme doc suggested taking LOLA which I did but only for a month prior to the second test....and only took it once a day. As you see it didn't help....
Posted 4/12/2019 11:09 AM (GMT 0)

MartinK said...
Please, is some DIY ammonia test? It's definitely one of the things I didn't try to focus.

Hi Martin,

Some people actually can smell ammonia either from their sweat or urine. I have read that they smell something like cat's pee smile I don't know if you can smell anything that resembles ammonia but if you do that means your ammonia levels are very high.

Denise
Posted 4/12/2019 12:39 PM (GMT 0)
Hi is there a blood test to test for ammonia?
Posted 4/12/2019 2:17 PM (GMT 0)
Hi HeartsinPain,

From what I read there is a blood test for ammonia levels. I knew I had ammonia in my body and brain just from what I was feeling when I was sick. When I took Jernigan's Neuro-Antitox (CNS/PNS) Formula my brain fog went away as well as other symptoms I experienced (joint pain, burning, etc.). Some recommend yucca root for ammonia but that doesn't cross the blood brain barrier (BBB).

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/ammonia-test#1

Hope this helps,
Denise
Posted 4/12/2019 2:35 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you so much Denise! Very helpful!
Posted 4/12/2019 2:48 PM (GMT 0)
Perfect thank you so much! Would you guys say that your brain fog is being on a dream like state?

Post Edited (HeartsinPain) : 4/12/2019 9:07:01 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/12/2019 9:31 PM (GMT 0)
To be honest...sometimes I smell something like ammonia from urina... but I wasn't sure. It will be good test it with LOLA and that Neuro-Antitox (this is first time when I hear this thing from dr. Jernigan) - I will look at that herbs inside...Im before order from Bristol Botanicals.

I have lot of experiences with HBOT - hard chamber. Dive into 15 of 18 meters for 2 hours is session here in Czech. Its hard to get it on insurance company, but best way is go for EAR doctor and simulate tinnitus - a little cheating, I know. But this help me a lot. Last year I did 45 sessions and symptoms was really smaller in the end. Summer was great...but in winter I crashed a lot with flu and now Im in bed for many hours of day.
Started new HBOT sessions last week - hope in the end I will be better like last experience!
Now I have 60 sessions!!! But start with worse symptoms...well see!

I think with HBOT is needed to use many antioxidants because free radicals. And drink a lot...its a great detox method too I believe.
Posted 4/12/2019 9:55 PM (GMT 0)
I have had much more success taking baths in Himalayan sea salt than epsom salt. Epsom salt seemed to irritate my skin, and make my my arms and legs swell. I've also heard that bathing in ground mustard seed or bladdewrack (seaweed) is good, but I haven't tried it yet.

Foot soaks-for some reason, I can't tolerate hot or warm water on my feet , so I haven't tried them.

Post Edited (Notime4lyme) : 4/14/2019 7:38:43 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/14/2019 12:44 AM (GMT 0)
As well as MCAS/mutations it could be simply because the heat/magnesium in Epsom salt (or combo thereof) is messing with your blood pressure. I know for a while I had to lie down on the floor after baths because my heart rate shot up.
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply