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Bartonella Drugs - Stationary vs. Active

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Posted 4/15/2020 3:46 PM (GMT 0)
Since I'm now treating Lyme and Bartonella, I am curious as to which drugs are thought to hit stationary Bart and which drugs only active Bart? I am presuming that stationary Bart is different from Bart being hidden by biofilms? Thanks.
Posted 4/15/2020 4:34 PM (GMT 0)
I know lyme has biofilms - is it known Bartonella also does?

I only know of the lyme biofilm dissolvers - lactoferrin and xylitol - I take those.
I’ve seen stevia mentioned here but not lately.
Posted 4/15/2020 6:11 PM (GMT 0)
Identification of FDA-Approved Drugs with Activity against Stationary Phase Bartonella henselae

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc6628006/

I know from my own experience that minocycline only kills active and not stationary bart.

Stevia doesn't get mentioned any more because people figured out that it doesn't work.
Posted 4/15/2020 6:50 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks, Quin.

Girle, I'm not sure about Bart and biofilms, though I would think possible. Neil Nathan mentions that Bart has ability to "burrow" into cells so that herbs and ABX have less affect on it.
Posted 4/15/2020 9:13 PM (GMT 0)
My go to Bart treatment is Septra. I have no idea if it targets one or the other. I didn’t see it listed on the article posted.
Posted 4/16/2020 1:06 AM (GMT 0)

ChickNorris said...
My go to Bart treatment is Septra. I have no idea if it targets one or the other. I didn’t see it listed on the article posted.

I have heard of Septra (bactrim) used for Bartonella.
But many on the list (link posted) are not usually (if ever) used for bart.
Posted 4/16/2020 4:55 AM (GMT 0)

ChristianWithLyme said...
Since I'm now treating Lyme and Bartonella, I am curious as to which drugs are thought to hit stationary Bart and which drugs only active Bart? I am presuming that stationary Bart is different from Bart being hidden by biofilms? Thanks.

My personal opinion is that drugs like disulfiram and pyrazinamide hit the stationary phase of bartonella, aka persister cells. While drugs like rifampin, bactrim, biaxin, omnicef, zithromax, doxy, mino just hit mostly the active phase.

I suspect Rifabutin may target the persister cell form too, biaxin is also decently powerful as well.

I think another bigger problem is the blood brain barrier and penetration... Even if these standard antibiotics do partially hit the stationary phase, if they don't penetrate your brain enough, get deep within your heart or liver where bartonella tend to hide out at, how would you ever expect them to target or treat neurobartonellosis?

Dr. H in New York seems to be having a lot of success rotating between disulfiram and pyrazinamide, you can hear new reports of these patients reports of success on the Facebook groups "Disulfiram for Lyme Support Group (Antabuse)" and "Beating Bartonella."
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dsf4lyme/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/405030996206293/

Do yourself a favor and join those groups, there's still a lot of good information on this forum, but tends to be of the same people doing the same thing expecting different results. Search tool on this forum is very useful, along with the search on these facebook groups, be sure to look up pyrazinamide on both.

Dr. H even mentioned in an old presentation how pyrazinamide worked on lyme patient with bartonella when no other drug worked https://youtu.be/bzu0weofvm8?t=5980

There's also new information that some of the antifungal drugs through Dr. Steven Phillips work and other scientists may be great drugs to target the stationary forms of bartonella, aka persister cells.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 4/15/2020 10:59:31 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/16/2020 5:14 AM (GMT 0)
And I'll tell you from experience after dealing with severe Bartonella after activating it within the past year...

Nothing works better than these two drugs disulfiram and pyrazinamide in my experience. I've tried many of the other antibiotics like mino, rifampin, bactrim, and omnicef. They work, but the results and progress are too slow.

Dr. K on DSF Hitting Bartonella -> https://youtu.be/q6dlpvbuxrq?t=292
The thing about Disulfiram, even if it partially targets bartonella like Dr. Dan Kinderlehrer says, despite those on this forum claim it doesn't hit bartonella, if you pair it up with a low dose form of rifampin like Dr. Kinderlehrer says to, it becomes even more powerful. And since disulfiram targets babesia and borrelia very heavily, it makes bartonella very weaker doing so, making it easier to treat. Why it's probably good to rotate antibiotics at times with Disulfiram, DSF also may be waking up persister cell forms, bring them out of hiding, just like it has shown to do with the AIDs virus.

I had success using pyrazinamide and doxy, very powerful combo for bartonella. pyrazinamide crosses the blood barrier very effeciently, so does disulfiram. If you listen to Dr Kenneth Liegner's interview, you'll hear that many of his lyme patients were able to come off of their anti-psychotic drugs after taking disulfiram, why? Well most likely the reason for these patients psych symptoms such as intrusive thoughts and PANS is from Bartonella.
https://youtu.be/8copz0yqghu

Good article with Daniel A. Kinderlehrer talking about how dose Disulfiram is working on his lyme patients PANS symptoms

https://www.lymedisease.org/kinderlehrer-crazy-sick/

said...
Brad suffered from several tick-borne infections: Lyme disease, babesiosis and bartonellosis. He likely acquired Bartonella from the cat scratch at age two, which then activated a congenital infection with Borrelia burgdorferi and Babesia.

He is sensitive to gluten, dairy, and yeast, which I suspected from the pattern of his food cravings. He had a positive Cunningham Panel consistent with PANS. After major improvement on antimicrobials and intestinal support, he suffered a relapse triggered by a mold exposure. Now on disulfiram, he is doing much better.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 4/15/2020 11:20:46 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/16/2020 12:52 PM (GMT 0)
I believe fenbendazole is effective on bart.
My vision is steadily improving on fenbendazole(on 3 days,off 4), mino, roxithromycin and just added low dose rifampin and Bilberry Fruit extract (bilberry caused a herx- not expected).
The vision change as measured by visual field acuity is an interesting measure of treatment efficacy.
Posted 4/16/2020 5:30 PM (GMT 0)
Cig

Fenbndazole, I feel worse for the 3 on days better on the 4 off.
Each cycle has seen a gain of better good days.
I don't think the fenbendazole is a monotherapy. The cancer groups team it up with vitamins (E mixed tocopherals), cbd oil and doxycycline.
Posted 4/16/2020 6:50 PM (GMT 0)
I believe Traveler made her own Chronic Tonic (similar to the Misty Meadows )


Google Misty Meadows and take a look at the ingredients. (There are some of Buhner's herbs in addition to Teasel Root that I haven't seen in Buhner's)
Posted 4/16/2020 7:03 PM (GMT 0)
If you want to try herbals, this research suggests oil of oregano and cinnamon bark.

Essential Oils with High Activity against Stationary Phase Bartonella henselae
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc6963529/
Posted 4/17/2020 10:48 AM (GMT 0)
Maybe. The brown color is in part due to the breakdown of red blood cells, so it could be due to that. I find that the color of my poo is also affected by what I ate though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/stercobilin
Posted 11/11/2020 11:35 AM (GMT 0)
I know this is an old thread but I want to share my recent experience. 3 weeks ago my LLMD switched my abx (per my request) to a protocol i found on the Dr MR website Treatlyme, he recently updated his Bart treatment for Persister and active Bart: Rifampin 2x 600m twice day, Azith 1x daily and Oregano Oil 75m 2x daily (Liposomal)

The OO treating the persister. I have been treating for 2 yrs this month and this is the first time I found something working and a drastic improvement in my CNS and balance problem! I am hopeful I am on the right road to recovery but staying realistic that I still have a long way to go.
Posted 11/11/2020 1:02 PM (GMT 0)
Just so you know, oregano is a potent antifungal. You may be getting relief from those symptoms because it’s hitting yeast/fungi/mold.

Yeast and mold cause more symptoms than most realize.
Posted 11/11/2020 1:09 PM (GMT 0)

Cignet said...
Ahh cheers for that. I'm actually emailing Traveler, got a response from her late last night so I am hopefully going to learn a lot from her.

One more thing Quin, if you don't mind. I know that darker urine is a symptom of bartonella die of bilirubin and such right? Is darker stool a symptom too? Today, after taking 2 tsp of houttuynia powder yesterday and feeling some herxing afterward, my stool was considerably darker today than the day before. Do you reckon it's bart dying off?

It's been a while - but just a thought on this - houttuynia leaf powder is rather dark and in itself is probably enough to turn your feces a darker shade at 2 tspns per day.
Posted 11/11/2020 1:40 PM (GMT 0)
I am actually waiting for a mycotoxin test as we speak from Great plains lab. This was suggested many times so if it is a coincidence that this new protocol is actually pointing to mold rather than it being mainly bart then the Mycotoxin test will be that much more helpful to me. Whatever it is hitting, it is working and I feel like a toddler walking for the first time and I am praying this is the start of my getting well, My life has been halted for 3 years because of the Neuro and off-balance symptoms. I have been in contact (through private email) with Traveler who is no longer on this forum and she has been extremely helpful over the last few weeks, in helping me better understand this horrible illness.

For all those Moderaters and veteran members on here, your pesonal experience and choice to continue to remain helping others is invaluable!!
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