HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

Blood Cell Counts Low for Years/Will not Rise

Support Forums
>
Lyme Disease
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
12
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 10/11/2020 5:45 PM (GMT 0)
I mentioned this years ago and have grown increasingly frustrated with it.

Has anyone else experienced low blood counts (RBC, WBC, Hematorcit, Hemo, Platelets) that rarely get within normal range? Latest blood tests, once again, show it is happening. Has been like that for years, except for a few times. My platelet count on this last one was 130, which is lowest ever.

I'm not concerned about cancer as I have been tested for that numerous times. But I can't understand why all those counts stay low. Omega 3s may be playing a part in platelets, but having both red and whites low (not extremely) is very frustrating and just adds to the anxiety/concern.

This has been happening for at least 7 years, though it may have been better during the 18 months I felt better in 2015-2016. I did not get anything checked in that time as I was worn out with going to doctors, just as I am now.

If it was just reds, I'd lean toward Babesia, but it's both. It just makes autoimmune seem more likely, though the many tests I have taken for autoimmune do not indicate anything close, except for one complement C3 and C4 test.
Posted 10/11/2020 5:51 PM (GMT 0)
wbcs are made in the bone marrow , sounds like bartonella is inhibiting new growth.:.hope u find some relief RW
Posted 10/11/2020 5:55 PM (GMT 0)
Have you had a "Chromogranin A" blood test done for a carcinoid syndrome? It will show elevated for some folks. Its unlikely but its one of the tests my oncologist orders for me. Its not a diagnosis as it can elevate for other reasons.
Posted 10/11/2020 6:07 PM (GMT 0)
Yes RW, my WBC is always low. It bounces between a 2.2-3.5, which is quite low. My RBC is often low, but sometimes bounces back to low-normal. My platelets are sometimes low, so is my hematocrit. This has been going on since around the time first got sick.

I do not know exactly what causes it, and i've seen a hematologist who didnt either. But...what i've come to realize is that people with autoimmune issues often have these problems. This has always made me think you had some sort of autoimmunity going on. There's something there that science doesnt understand yet. Something is ****ing with our homeostasis. Either EBV or a lyme infetion or some heavy metals or a screwed up microbiome, i really dont know anymore.

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 10/11/2020 12:33:11 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/11/2020 6:08 PM (GMT 0)
I had low white blood cell count for many months - It was when I was treating Bartonella with my first lyme doc. Probably in 2015.

It went down to 2 something (2.3 I think?)
Interestingly my regular Doc said it wasn’t anything to worry about.

Now it’s always over 4
Posted 10/11/2020 6:31 PM (GMT 0)
Same here, low RBC and WBC are below and MCH is mostly always high as well for most of my 10 years of tracking labs, But RCB and WBC have edged back to normal range the past two years. But WBC still occasionally dips back below range from time to time.

I read somewhere that WBC is low when your on ABX treatment since your body detects that it does not need to create as many.
Posted 10/11/2020 6:41 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for responses. Over the years, I've read where a good number of people on this site deal with low blood counts.

What bluelyme mentions is what throws me - if it were just WBC I would think Bart. But with both, it adds in a new side. I'll have to look at records to see if I've had a Chromogranin A test. Had so many with two bone marrow biopsies, several blood smears done through three different hematologists over a six year period.

Your situation dcd, is about exactly as mine is. My recent WBC was 2.7, RBC 3.87, Hematrocit 37.1 and Hemo 12.4. Nothing that is extremely low, and as you mention, they are sometimes low normal. I never know each test. The platelets this time were lowest they've been. You mentioned EBV. That was my thought, but according to doctors, mine is showing past infection and EBV DNA is negative. But the
VCA IgG VCA IgM EBNA IgG is positive and has been for several years, but one chart considers that positive and another one indicates negative. Then I've had doctors say since EBV DNA is negative, I don't have an active form. It confuses. Have you had a EBV DNA test?

Girlie - I remember reading a lot abouot your concern for the low WBC. So glad is it up for you.

Going through mold tests now. A few show enough mold that could be impacting with a weakened immune system. This week I will speak with someone from Immunolytics about what it all means, and I have a friend who does mold remediation coming by to take a look at areas.
Posted 10/11/2020 7:01 PM (GMT 0)
Running, as you might remember I wrote many posts on this in the past and researched this topic when out search bar here worked well.

My RBL count was and is always good.

WBC count was low before treatment and became with with and after ABX use. This parallels cd57, the two globuilins and two subclass immunoglobulins. Ive gone to places that know about this stuff (I actually fall into the disease immune category which is not uncommon with autoimmune as well. Per wiki, 1 in 25,000 people in the US have what I have. This is a volume test, not strength.

Yet I feel better than ever.

My immune army has less solders than normal, but they still kick arse ............thats what the immune center told me but in their words.

I have not done/gone the IGIV route (they do this at my immune clinic) because im not sick. That is costly with questionable results, and must repeat maybe forever. Kids who are sick like the boy in the bubble from 1980's (RIP) have no choice but IGIV.

I had bone cancer testing too, just to be sure, was good..

So lyme did this , or ABX did or contributed.

I go there again in November for blood draw.

Post Edited (astroman) : 10/11/2020 1:05:29 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/11/2020 10:34 PM (GMT 0)
I understand globulins test. Have had five of them. The one that keeps coming back high is kappa, but the kappa/lamba ratio is good, which means no cancers. So what you deal with is part autoimmune, astroman? Just clarifying.
Posted 10/12/2020 12:02 AM (GMT 0)
“ (I actually fall into the disease immune category which is not uncommon with autoimmune as well. Per wiki, 1 in 25,000 people in the US have what I have. This is a volume test, not strength.0

Are you saying you have some sort of immunodeficiency? If so which one did they tell you you have? And you’re saying lyme did it?
Posted 10/12/2020 4:04 AM (GMT 0)

running wild said...
....So what you deal with is part autoimmune, astroman? Just clarifying.

My thyroid is autoimmune Hashimoto, proven with one high antibody (I normalized one going glutan free). No other elevated autoimmune antibodies have been found in me.

The immune clinic does not know why my immune cells are low- but they did tell me that autoimmune issues are not uncommon with low immune.

Remember the only way any autoimmune is proven is with elevated antibodies.
Posted 10/12/2020 4:28 AM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...
“ (I actually fall into the disease immune category which is not uncommon with autoimmune as well. Per wiki, 1 in 25,000 people in the US have what I have. This is a volume test, not strength.0

Are you saying you have some sort of immunodeficiency? If so which one did they tell you you have? And you’re saying lyme did it?

Yes, two. I read up on them on the IDA website. They have specific names for any of the low immune cells, which makes is sound worse than it is. Its in my paper pile....I'll look later.

These clinics have no interest in finding reasons why (surprised?). They just tests, diagnose and treat with IGIV if your always getting sick (i'm not).

I prob had lyme since childhood, (house surrounded by woods) some worse years, some better, but still functioned because thats what you do when thats all you've known/felt.. 1970's health care was more of a joke than today.

As an adult, I had yearly physicals with the lab tests every year. And about ten years ago my WBC count was dropping. Drs said so what. about eight years ago my first LLMD noticed that and then did cd57 since thats directly related and was low. He said some never recover from that even though they might even feel better. Well, I am one on those people.

With Lyme symptoms gone and still had low cd57 and wbc count so I asked for more specific immune tests from my primary Dr and.... low and behold, some immunoglobulins were under range not just low. One is far under.

There are also genes for low immune cells, I have double copies of that too (positive).

Its near impossible to prove how this happened. Im not as concerned as I once was.
Posted 10/12/2020 3:43 PM (GMT 0)
astroman - You answered a question I was going to ask you abut our immunoglobulins. I see yours did come out low, which says a lot.

That leaves me with the question about why this is all happening with normal immunoglobulin counts. Your case is interesting.

dcd - Have you had your immunglobulins checked? I can't remember. If not, would be a good idea?
Posted 10/12/2020 4:07 PM (GMT 0)
My IGs are normal. My WBC is low, but immunoglobulin levels normal. Low IGs can indicate things like CVID, PID, IgA deficiency. These often trigger autoimmune diseases as the lack of immunity causes a breakdown in tolerance, although many people are fine
Posted 10/12/2020 5:38 PM (GMT 0)
dcd - CVID (Common variable immune deficiency).

Like I mentioned they give lots of various names for low immune.........that conventional medicine, give it a label with no interest in finding the cause.

I had all the various T cells, B's and N. Killer cells tested too. Some of my B's are low. Other related stuff to that I wont get into...three pages long.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Running - immunoglobulins are only part of the WBC count. Find a list of all that's involved and something will be low. Start with T's NK's and B's. Its all on the Quest lab test "menu" on their website. Thats what I did when asking my GP to test - she didnt know these but was impressed with my research, very few Drsknow this. That was the gateway to the immune clinic.
Posted 10/12/2020 5:39 PM (GMT 0)
i get odd blood count results and routine blood test results pretty much every time i go
usually, a different marker is out each time and generally not by much - but still outside the range - or on the upper or lower limit

GP never takes any notice - but clearly, something is not right

hematocrit -
eosinophil count
mean cell volume
neutrophil count
basophil count
Total white cell count
Mean Platelet volume
mean cell hemoglobin concentration
plasma viscosity

liver enzymes
cholesterol
phosphate
urea
total serum protein
Globulin

generally, the white blood cell counts were around low normal range when i was more ill - now more in the center.

i also had CD57+ tested a couple of years ago and it was v low - aroudn 40 i think

most of the red blood cells, platelets, and white blood cells are made in the bone marrow and that is infected and disrupted by Bart - so i think that is the cause in my case

larger than average Mean cell volume tends to indicate higher than average red blood cell turnover ( as they are bigger when young )
so again points to an infection in the RBC

i also had a blood smear done looking for parasites - and it reported stomatocytosis - cup-shaped red blood cells
i did a fair bit of digging to find out what the cause may be

i was tested by one of the UK universities as part of a project they were doing looking for 40 known genetic mutations that can cause it - but came up free of all of them

on the next blood test it was gone

Bart could feasibly do it - but it could also be some kind of autoimmune or inflammation-driven effect.

in my 40's while still apparently fit and well I suddenly got gall bladder disease - and tests showed what they called idiopathic hemolytic anemia
( my body periodically attacking its own red blood cells for unknown reason )

again i now belive my body was attacking some of its red blood cells for a very good reason - ie they were infected and needed rounding up and sending to the liver for recycling
Posted 10/12/2020 5:45 PM (GMT 0)

Garzie said...
i get odd blood count results and routine blood test results pretty much every time i go
usually, a different marker is out each time and generally not by much - but still outside the range - or on the upper or lower limit

GP never takes any notice - but clearly, something is not right

hematocrit -
eosinophil count
mean cell volume
neutrophil count
basophil count
Total white cell count
Mean Platelet volume
mean cell hemoglobin concentration
plasma viscosity

liver enzymes
cholesterol
phosphate
urea
total serum protein
Globulin

generally, the white blood cell counts were around low normal range when i was more ill - now more in the center.

i also had CD57+ tested a couple of years ago and it was v low - aroudn 40 i think

most of the red blood cells, platelets, and white blood cells are made in the bone marrow and that is infected and disrupted by Bart - so i think that is the cause in my case

larger than average Mean cell volume tends to indicate higher than average red blood cell turnover ( as they are bigger when young )
so again points to an infection in the RBC

i also had a blood smear done looking for parasites - and it reported stomatocytosis - cup-shaped red blood cells
i did a fair bit of digging to find out what the cause may be

i was tested by one of the UK universities as part of a project they were doing looking for 40 known genetic mutations that can cause it - but came up free of all of them

on the next blood test it was gone

Bart could feasibly do it - but it could also be some kind of autoimmune or inflammation-driven effect.

in my 40's while still apparently fit and well I suddenly got gall bladder disease - and tests showed what they called idiopathic hemolytic anemia
( my body periodically attacking its own red blood cells for unknown reason )

again i now belive my body was attacking some of its red blood cells for a very good reason - ie they were infected and needed rounding up and sending to the liver for recycling

Negative for babesia? Malaria?
Posted 10/12/2020 6:48 PM (GMT 0)
Same question I was going to ask, dcd - about Babesia and Malaria. There is so much similarities, Grazie, to our numbers on tests. There are a few I always have normal you mention - urera, globulin, protein, liver enzymes and a couple more that are also normal. It is the reds and whites, platelets, that always seem to be off or close bottom of normal.

Was also wondering when you mention cholesterol, is your's low or high? My cholesterol has been bottom of normal for years in every category. Biologix actually has me taking a cholesterol supplement, and I also drink a tablespoon of olive oil each day. Dcd - is your cholesterol normal? Maybe we can all learn something form this. Thanks for sharing.
Posted 10/12/2020 7:53 PM (GMT 0)
never been tested for babesia - as such -at the time I was having the Lyme tests it was thought to be a very remote possibility in Europe.

B. Duncani does occur in Europe - but only in a few cases a year acc to scientific papers - not sure what the LLMD's are finding - or what the view here is on babesia in Europe?

then last year I read an interesting article from the veterinarian world detailing how they have found a new babesia organism called B. Venoratum in sheep in the Scottish highlands and I think in dear in a similar area

i have had blood smears x2 - but that is very insensitive for babesia in chronic cases ( less than one organism per field of view is common in chronic cases )

i don't think i have ever been tested for malaria - but fevers have never been a significant part of my illness so that was another reason for not persisting down that path,

my cholesterol was super low for years - then when I got ill - or just before - it went high - LDL, non HDL/LDL lipids ratio, triglycerides - all high ( although moved back around 20% towards normal range in the most recent test ( am feeling better than i was )

these are my results from the other day

T. Cholesterol mmol/L 0-5 6.5
HDL Cholesterol mmol/L >1.1 1.4
Chol/HDL ratio ratio <4 4.6
non-HDL cholesterol mmol/L <4 5.1

i think it's just a marker that something is damaging my blood vessels as that's when the body produces it - it's used to temporarily patch up damage to the epithelial cells that make up the wall of the blood vessels - stops them from leaking while the body heals it -

i am also experiencing some kind of liver/gall bladder problem while treating with herbs - overall i'm improving still - but i seem to be getting irritation in the gallbladder - possibly small stones or sludge - trying to get an ultrasound scan to be sure. this happened before i got fully ill - right out of the blue and i think is linked to the periodic hemolytic anemia ( I'm not actually truly anemic - but my body does seem to want to recycle its red blood cells aggressively periodically - especially while treating with herbs - and this tends to lead to gall stones / sludge - and i get mild pain in that area that wakes me in the early hours.

Post Edited (Garzie) : 10/12/2020 2:01:20 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/13/2020 12:14 AM (GMT 0)
From past research looking for answers to the loss of fat/collagen under skin, I thought Babesia is found"throughout Europe," if I remember correctly. I was looking for forms of Borrelia when I came across information about Babesia.

A few years ago, I tested positive for Babesia Duncani, but I am in the United States. If ou have never been tested for Babesia, maybe worth a try? I plan on having it tested again. It would explain a lot if that turned out to be positive in your case and if still positive in mine. That's wild about your cholesterol being so low and then high. Anytime I have a lipid panel done, the doctor remarks how he or she has never seen cholesterol so low. And low cholesterol is also not good to have. It can cause anxiety and depression.

You think the herbs are overloading the liver Garzie?
Posted 10/13/2020 5:28 AM (GMT 0)
dcd2103- Looked thru my paper pile.

Running - this is why you need more immune testing. Good thing your immunoglobulins are good, Still, B's, NK's and T's need testing to be sure its not going down this path. There are several of each of those.

Common variable immunodeficiency (CVID) is what I was Dx'ed with, which is not so common as it affects between 1 in 25,000 to 1 in 50,000, (cant make up their minds I guess). And some people die in there 40's from it (past that!), that said, there is not enough studies on this.

great write up on wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/common_variable_immunodeficiency :

[......"The cause of CVID is poorly understood. Deletions in genes that encode cell surface proteins and cytokine receptors, such as CD19, CD20, CD21, and CD80, is a likely cause. A deletion is a mutation in which part of the chromosome is lost during DNA replication which may include several genes, or as few as a single base pair. Additionally, the disease is defined by T cell defects, namely reduced proliferative capacity.".....]

I have a few genes for this one is a specific T cell gene that I found from 23andMe. Have Hypogammaglobulinemia too, which is easily spotted on a standard blood panel as low globulin protien and low total protien:

[......."The symptoms of CVID vary between people affected. Its main features are hypogammaglobulinemia and recurrent infections. Hypogammaglobulinemia manifests as a significant decrease in the levels of IgG antibodies, usually alongside IgA antibodies; IgM antibody levels are also decreased in about half of people.[6] Infections are a direct result of the low antibody levels in the circulation, which do not adequately protect them against pathogens.".....]

["Symptoms and complications: autoimmune manifestations, e.g. pernicious anemia, autoimmune haemolytic anemia (AHA), idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP), psoriasis, vitiligo, rheumatoid arthritis, primary hypothyroidism, atrophic gastritis. Autoimmunity is the main type of complication in people with CVID, appearing in some form in up to 50% of individuals;
malignancies, particularly Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and gastric carcinoma;
enteropathy, which manifests with a blunting of intestinal villi and inflammation, and is usually accompanied by symptoms such as abdominal cramps, diarrhea, constipation and, in some cases, malabsorption and weight loss. Symptoms of CVID enteropathy are similar to those of celiac disease, but don't respond to a gluten-free diet. Infectious causes must be excluded before a diagnosis of enteropathy can be made, as people with CVID are more susceptible to intestinal infections, e.g. by Giardia lamblia;
lymphocytic infiltration of tissues, which can cause enlargement of lymph nodes (lymphadenopathy), of the spleen (splenomegaly) and of the liver (hepatomegaly), as well as the formation of granulomas. In the lung this is known as Granulomatous–lymphocytic interstitial lung disease. Anxiety and depression can occur as a result of dealing with the other symptoms.[7] CVID patients generally complain of severe fatigue"]

------------------------------------------------------------
My understanding: there are two types;
1) primary (born this way (boy in the bubble from 1980's))
2) secondary/ acquired. The literature mentions getting this from infections that attack the immune system; of course ******tick infections are not mentioned.!!******

Post Edited (astroman) : 10/13/2020 7:32:31 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/13/2020 2:20 PM (GMT 0)
Astroman -

from what i have read, i think it's possible to get an acquired version of this type of immune deficiency - as well as the genetically determined one - much like the way Lyme generates other deficiencies and mirrors other normally genetically driven conditions - like EDS ( the one where you get collagen/elastin / connective tissue issues )
many people on these forums seem to have various forms and Horowitz reports immunoglobulin insufficiencies in a number of his chronically ill patients


it's also interesting that all those symptoms and complications are the same as those which are associated with Lyme and its associated co-infections. making it particularly to differentiate the cause between infection and other causes

Runninwild

yeah - I think it's certainly possible that babesia of some type is involved - along with another 5 or 6 possibles - but Lyme and Bart fit best

as a slight asside - I remember walking in the fields where we had been bitten by about 1 dozen horse flies before getting ill and looking at the sheep there, many had swollen joints, were hobbling about, all had loose stools ( not normal - but uncommon in sheep) , but I remember how tired and fatigued they looked and thinking - "they look exactly how I feel!!" - but who knows.

there is very little scientific study on the transmission of Lyme or babesia by vectors other than ticks - but its certainly possible - as it's similar to malaria and that can be rapidly transmitted via biting insect ( mosquito).

i have sida, crypto and alcornea in my current anti-microbial regime and am improving - so hopefully that can take care of whatever it is


i dont think its the herbs as such giving my liver a hard time directly - i think they are most likely modulating my immune system ( that is the idea of most of them - salvia, cordyceps, cats claw, skullcap etc ) - causing it to find stuff it wasn't found before. the fallout from that is routed mainly to the liver to process - and most of that ends up in your bile. too much of some stuff ( like bilirubin from the breakdown or red blood cells etc ) will turn the bile sludgelike and or cause stones to form.

some herbs like isatis will cause swelling of the bile ducts if taken for long periods ( buhner suggests 3 weeks max then 1-week break for this reason ) i have had that also - but it feels different to gallstones/sludge
Posted 10/13/2020 3:23 PM (GMT 0)

Garzie said...
Astroman -

................... an acquired version of this type of immune deficiency - as well as the genetically determined one - much like the way Lyme generates other deficiencies and mirrors other normally genetically driven conditions ........................................... many people on these forums seem to have various forms and Horowitz reports immunoglobulin insufficiencies in a number of his chronically ill patients

Ill have to goggle Horowitz's info on this.

Anyone with low CD57 (low immune cell average of T and NK's if I remember right) can have what I have and might not know it since LLMDs usually dont test immune beyond the CD57 test.
Posted 10/13/2020 4:07 PM (GMT 0)
Garzie,

As for your liver, are you taking TUDCA? I highly recommend it.
Posted 10/13/2020 5:59 PM (GMT 0)

WalkingbyFaith said...
Garzie,

As for your liver, are you taking TUDCA? I highly recommend it.

not at the moment - but it is on my list to try smile

i am currently doing liver flushes as these worked for me before and i went from only being able to eat even one egg without a gall bladder attack - v painful - to eating a full keto diet with lots of fat in every meal - purely through doing the liver flush thing
i actually expelled a calcified stone - only pea-sized but it proved to me its not an old wives tale type thing

i looked up TUDCA but it was quite expensive over here - like £50 per month - and i am already spending a small fortune on herbs and supplements so whilst i want to try it - i am prioritizing the things that seem to be getting at the root of my health issues - ie infection

still - i do want to try it so will have a go at some point - thanks for the recommendation
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
12