Salvia Miltiorrhiza (Red Sage/Danshen) Herx?

Hi guys!

I started taking Salvia Miltiorrhiza yesterday, due to Buhner's high praise of the herb, in hopes that it might calm the cytokine cascades in my body, and help give me some symptomatic relief.

I took a couple drops last night, and today have taken 7 drops in two doses. I'm noticing an uptick in flu-like feelings, and my body temperature is higher than it normally is (normal at night is usually 98, now its 98.6). It's manageable and not too intense, but I was expecting symptom relief, not an uptick in symptoms (pardon the pun ).

Any ideas on this? What have your experiences with Red Sage been like?

I didn’t do well with it. Chinese skullcap, on the other hand, is wonderful for me.

interesting

Dan Shen is a very safe herb with a very long history of use in the East. it is actually the most popular of all Chinese herbs in Traditional Chinese medicine taken today in china.

that said - i have had mild reactions from Dan Shen - a kind of tingling inside my head - in the same region where i used to get focal headaches. it also causes my feet to tingle - like a cross between a slight burning sensation and pins and needles - mild though - not hard to tolerate.
initially, i got a slightly spaced-out sensation with it also - not strong - just found myself staring at things and not knowing quite why.

I have Lyme and strongly suspect Bart also - positive tests also for Mycoplasma Pneumonia but don't know how much of my symptom pictures associated with that.

i started with around 2ml 4x a day but found the initial effects a bit too strong for comfort so when back to 1ml 4x - and gradually worked up from there till I was in Buhners suggested range. i notice he has added to the protocols for all chronic bacterial infections in his later books and seems to be a strong believer in its benefits.

i am now taking around 3.5ml 4x - the odd effects become less over time and feel it has helped me considerably. ( this is 1:4 tincture 60% alcohol which I make myself).
i find some brands are stronger than others so stick to the stronger ones now.

most things that have helped me have seemed to make things a bit worse for a while ( or a lot worse if i overdo them! )
I would just go back to whatever dose you find comfortable/tolerable and work up from there.

to my knowledge dan shen is not directly antimicrobial in its action - buhner describes it best as an Immune system adaptogen - but it's interesting to note that it's traditionally used for all diseases of the cardiovascular system in TCM - and that Bartonella infects mainly the cells lining the circulation system....

FishingforLight said...
Wow! You were taking a lot more than I am. Thanks for the input - I think I'll stick with it at a lower dose (4 or 5 drops) and see where it takes me. Last night felt like a full blown out of control herx, which I haven't felt for a while, but I guess it could just be a flare-up of symptoms not related to the Red Sage.

It is interesting that you experienced head tingling/mild foot tingling/pain, and headaches/foot pain are the two symptoms I feel may be Bartonella symptoms. I wonder if this signifies Red Sage's minor action against Bart? Just a thought smile

Hi , did you continued with red sage and did you understand if it hit bartonella?

WalkingbyFaith said...
Maria,

I don’t think red sage is included for its ability to “hit bartonella” as in killing bartonella. It was included with Chinese skullcap as a cytokine modulator. They are recommended to both be taken. They work differently.

Copied from Buhner’s COVID protocol (Salvia miltiorrhiza is also called Red sage or Danshen):
“Salvia miltiorrhiza is a strong cytokine adaptogen, specific for this kind of thing; it acts to normalize cytokine dysfunction.”

It really sounds interesting to try red sage! I also would like to try Chinese skullcap but I read in one of Buhners books that he says that there is a caution about taking prescription meds because Chinese skullcap increased the bioavailability of them. I take both abx- antimalarials and antidepressants. Have you taken prescription meds together with chinese skullcap without any problem?

WalkingbyFaith said...
I was not taking Rx drugs at the time I started Buhner’s protocols. I still take skullcap and I do take Rx antifungals and sometimes Rx anti parasitics now. I didn’t remember that warning. It’s been years since I cracked a book.

Maybe take it a couple hours away from Rx, especially the antidepressants.

In the beginning, I took the skullcap/red sage combo tincture. I struggled with it. A year or so later, I ordered the tinctures separately and taste tested them. I discovered I had a euphorically positive response to skullcap and a decidedly negative response to red sage, so I only took skullcap at that point.

Later, when I taste tested again, my reactions were more neutral for both.

Remember, everyone responds differently and your own responses will likely change over time.

Yes maybe that is enough to space them out in time!

Garzie said...
Chinese Skullcap potentiates ( increases the effects of ) drugs and other herbs by slowing down their processing in the liver - leading to higher than normal levels in the blood
spacing apart from the drugs will not help much i'm afraid

that is the reason for cation with other medications that are detoxified via the cytochrome P450 3A4 pathway - which is most drugs - but you can check if yours are indicated on a drugs info web page
perhaps this one if your drug is listed

https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html

the effect is dose dependent - so lower doses of skullcap may be less of a problem

Thank you, that was good to know! I take mirtazapine and when checking that one seems to be affected of P450 3A4... so I guess I should try red sage only