HELP - My Gut is Dying (Update)

I got a UTI and have been on Nitrofurantoin (Macrobid) since Tuesday night. It is hitting my gut really hard.

I had to stop my Natural Calm magnesium supplement due to not being able to take magnesium while on this abx. Normally, I can’t have a bowel movement unless I take the Natural Calm. Anyway, I have had multiple, looser BM’s daily since getting this UTI even without the magnesium until yesterday. Yesterday, I still had bowel move, but with straining. Same this morning.

Here’s the deal. Since being on the abx, my bowel movements have a very strong chemical smell and very poorly digested food. I assume that is because the good bacteria are what digest your food and help you absorb nutrients.

I have doubled up on my probiotics and S. Boullardii, taking them twice a day, but I don’t think it’s doing much. This is what I have:

Megaspore probiotics
Orthomolecular S. Boullardii
Rhamnosus
PB8
Goat yogurt (started 2 days ago)
Orthomolecular Digestzymes

Even though I have been on some reputable probiotics since 2016, when I had an OAT test in June 2019, it showed my gut bacteria was very low. I have mold/mycotoxins and have been on Nystatin and Fluconazole for that since summer 2019.

What am I doing wrong?

What else can I do to help digest food properly?

To help my gut flora?

I just ordered SBI Protect. Should that help with anything or is it another supplement that will only work if your gut is fairly healthy already?
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EDIT:

I should add that the only herbal antimicrobials I am currently taking are Japanese knotweed, cryptolepis, and whatever combos are in Microbe Formula’s Intestinal Mover and Formula One. I had just started the crypto right before the UTI started, as I was just beginning to trial Alinia for parasites.

Post Edited (WalkingbyFaith) : 2/26/2021 1:43:45 PM (GMT-7)

I thought you had high lactic acid producing bacteria based on your OAT test? So why PB8 then?

Did you look into Mutaflor I suggested?

Well it’s one probiotic that is anti-pathogenic and will actually colonize your gut. It’s also shown to protect against pathogens (like I’ve stated before, they discovered it during WW1 when 10% of the troops were resistant to dysentery!). I think most probiotics are pretty weak, and if they won’t colonize, what’s the point

I guess I ask about PB8 because you said that you are over producing lactic acid due to too many lactic acid producing bacteria. PB8 is lactic acid strains, so it’s likely making you worse?

I think if you have overgrowth of lactic acid producers, then you are limited in options for probiotics to take back space. Most have lacto strains. Megaspore is non lactic acid, but I think is probably quite weak. S Boulardii possibly same thing for you. This is why I recommend Mutaflor.

If lactic acid producing bacteria are not overgrown, then I would recommend going super strong. Visbiome 450 and hit it with 2-3 packets and see if it helps.

You have to figure out what you’re taking and why. Low doses of varied probiotics that don’t colonize, and may be contributing to your problem, likely won’t do anything beneficial. This is why I recommend big guns. Mutuaflor or Visbiome 450. But you have to figure out what’s going on down there first.

Let’s start w the basics. What did your oat test say? Did it indicate an overgrowth of lactic acid producing bacteria?

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 1/30/2021 7:29:28 AM (GMT-7)

Yea I know what it is. It’s shown to be very beneficial. In fact, it’s proven to protect against pathogens. It’s used extensively out in Europe. Do not know why we are so far behind in the US with this stuff.

If a probiotic won’t colonize, what’s the point? You clearly have colonization of something pathogenic/dysbiotic already. Colonization by something beneficial that is shown to limit overgrowth seems ideal. Sign me up!! My naturopath LOVES it and has gotten great results with it.

When I used mutaflor I got major die off. My stomach is extremely dysbiotic between the SIBO, blasto, and candida. There was a definite war going on down there. I had to give up on the 12th day. We decided my bacteria levels are just too high. Going to retry after a few more months of keto and some herbs to lower bacteria levels, make it an easier fight. But I’d literally pay a lot of money to have this thing colonize and begin protecting me

Also, the reason you may not have felt anything w the Visbiome is because you already have an overgrowth of this bacteria, like I remember you originally stated your oat test showed. Friendly troops don’t fire against each other

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 1/30/2021 7:49:37 AM (GMT-7)

I tried many and VSL#3 (pills not the powder) was the only one that had noticeable positive affects. Its not cheap, but my pharma had a discount program one day a month for 25% off.

It's actually the opposite of what you are thinking. The Macrobid is killing off the bad bacteria. Things like Shigella, Staph, E coli, Enterococcus, Neisseria, Klebsiella, and Bacteroides. These bacteria in excess amounts are contributing to your issues. The Macrobid is just killing them. It's difficult to grow good bacteria when you have too many of these. That is why many probiotics are ineffective. Three things can prevent good bacteria from growing. 1. A toxin producing pathogen that is altering GI pH. 2. Bacteria present in excessive amounts that out compete good bacteria for nutrients. 3. Having insufficient nutrients present to support the growth of good bacteria.

Lyme patients are basically MSIDS patients so any or all of the three can be an issue.

GH,

Thank you for responding!!!

Is the Macrobid killing whatever good bacteria I may have, too?

Is there a particular probiotic or foods that you recommend as I finish out this antibiotic and try to help my gut recover? Does food need to be raw or will cooked food help, too?

Do you recommend any supplement forms of nutrients for people in this situation?

Any other suggestions on how I can optimize the opportunity I have right now to fix my gut when I finish up the Macrobid?

Thank you in advance.

Nitrofurantoin usually only kills the undesirable bacteria. Your Penicillin, Erythromycins, and Doxycyclines are what often cause your good flora to die. It is the pH change that gets a lot of them. Some are resistant so that is good. No one really knows what is the best route to take because each person has a unique set of problems.

As far as foods go, Astro hit the nail on the head when he said what some people could eat before you get sick and after you get sick are two different things. I can tell you what is best for us to eat, but many do not do well eating the best foods. Their die off is too severe and they can't remove the toxic debris fast enough. Eating can cause a herx just like taking a medication. It all boils down to GI pH. People with Lyme and co-infections have an altered GI pH that doesn't allow for optimal bacterial/fungal growth. Many have too many fungi, too many bad Proteobacteria, too many bad Firmicutes, and too few desirable bacteria. Using your situation as an example, if you had too many Bilophila, which is a Proteobacteria, then you may have problems with constipation. Bilophila is unique in that it can utilize sodium as a source of nutrition and by lowering your available sodium, that could be altering water percentage in your GI tract. Nitrofurantoin does a good job of killing anaerobic rods like Bilophila. It's never just one bacteria causing the issues. Put Borrelia in the GI mucosa and then you have potential for a lot more issues. Mold toxins are the same way.
The reason I say raw plants are optimal for us to eat is because they have more nutrients, tend to be less polluted than animal protein, they have less methionine than animal protein, and when raw from a garden and not the grocery store, have a substantially better assortment of bacteria to colonize our GI tract.

People that eat more animal protein have more Bilophila because of the sulfites that meat fat produces during digestion. It can create a Th1 immune response that increases colitis in certain genetically susceptible people.

As far recommendations, I wish I could guide you down the right road but everyone is different. You must first determine what is causing your problems. Is it mold? Get away from the mold. Is it bacteria? Kill the bacteria. Is it fungi, lower the fungal level. Is it a protozoan? Good luck with that. Physicians have a hard time believing you have those. Whatever it is, remove yourself from it. Then you can start eating better and slowly return your GI tract back to something better. For me, it was a combination of an air conditioner duct too small causing condensation and fungal growth, Borrelia and Babesia, and possibly even chlorine toxicity. You will have a combination of things as well that are altering your health for the worse. Finding it is the key. It could be your source of water. Drinking from plastic bottles can increase PCB's or drinking tap water may be an issue. Well water and city water both can be problematic. It's something, keep looking.

dcd2103 said...
GH can you elaborate on Ph change? Is the Ph normally too low or too high in most people with these problems?

I can not say with any degree of accuracy. It varies per organism. Enterococcus is one I have looked at because I feel it is often an issue for people with Lyme. It thrives in a pH of 9.5. It will grow at other pH's but its growth is retarded at 10.5 and 11. I see this as significant because Lyme patients often have acute bouts of hyperammonemia. Ammonia has a pH of 11. Is this one way the body tries to keep the GI tract from going too far out of balance? I believe it is.

Optimal pH of the GI tract for Lactobacillus is 6. It will still survive at other pH's but it's concentration diminishes. When it diminishes, the GI tract no longer has higher amounts of lactic acid which is used to prevent "bad" bacteria from growing. That would make one think that the pH was higher than normal. But part of the issue in that the bacteria of our GI tract can survive at multiple pH levels. The concentration of bacteria is often the problem with Lyme patients and a pH change could cause that. If the pH of the GI tract were 8, then neither of the above two bacteria would flourish. The pH of the GI tract over time is dictated in normal people by what they eat. In patients that aren't normal, like Lyme patients, pathogens may be responsible for dictating the pH. Then we get in a situation where the most resilient bacteria flourish. It's a competition for nutrients and they only get what we give them.

Here is an example from the literature: " B. intermedius showed maximum proteolytic activity at pH 7.0, and high activity over a wide pH range. In contrast, the optimum pH of proteolytic activity in P. gingivalis was pH 7.5 to 8.0."

In essence, no one knows. I pieced bits and pieces together but once I got well, I no longer focused on that aspect. I do more COVID research now. Every time I post on that here I get blasted so I just don't post on it anymore but I still put it on Facebook.

GH,
Thank you very much for that detailed response, and especially about which antibiotics hurt the good bacteria. I did not know that.

I had started intermittent use of Alinia just before I got the UTI and was excited about working towards that. Once my gut calms down, I hope to get back on track with that. My plan was to do a round of Alinia and then Ivermectin.

Astroman,

Test strips like this?
https://www.amazon.com/universal-paper-strips-measure-range/dp/b07q4vrqd1?th=1&psc=1

Do you have instructions on when and how to use the strips for saliva or urine? How to evaluate the results for each?

For bowel movements magnesium is great. I also have bifidobacterium strains for probiotics they're more needed than the lactobacillus.

I have not done this in a few years so I forget the details. . The test strips have a color chart that you match up to find the number value. I forget the exact values saliva should be around 7 to 7.2 I think and I don’t remember if urine is higher or lower but it is different. This is easy to google.

For urine you P on the test strip after your initial first seconds of P is out, for saliva your mouth must be clean and toothpaste free.

There are various brands of litmus paper which is the real name of pH paper. Most health supplement websites sell this and some stores actually keep it in stock