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Posted 3/13/2021 1:37 PM (GMT 0)
I am dealing with an unidentified UTI. I am also suffering from increased gut dysfunction after short rounds of abx. I am starting to think fasting may be my best option, but it could make me pretty sick.

Back in October or November, I did a 24 hour fast. I still took my herbs and meds, but I think I skipped a lot of supplements. I was fine until I took the meds and drank the mag citrate that night. It made me feel pretty awful.

In order to have any effect on killing microbes, it will have to be a water fast of at least 3 days. I am not even sure if 3 days will do much clearing.

I would love to hear what you all know about fasting for infections and the best way to prepare for it and get through it safely.
Posted 3/13/2021 1:42 PM (GMT 0)
Another thing I wonder about is which, if any, microbes are likely to die off in a 3 day fast. Will good microbes die and leave the bad ones more tenacious than ever?

I suspect I have the following:
- bad bacteria
- very low good bacteria
- ropeworm and possibly other parasites
- yeast and possibly mold
- herpes viruses
- chlamydia pneumonia
- mycoplasma pneumonia
Posted 3/13/2021 2:07 PM (GMT 0)
I did a water only fast for 5 days. It can really bring down gut dysbiosis levels. It had a significant affect on my pain levels and I would like to do it again.

My one word of caution is to maintain your electrolyte levels. I would buy an electrolyte mix w no sugar (I like dr bergs electrolyte mix on Amazon, naturopath recommended). I developed a severe back spasm on day 5 due to lack of electrolytes which I needed to go on muscle relaxers for 3 weeks to get rid of
Posted 3/13/2021 2:08 PM (GMT 0)
I think fasting is a great idea.. if anything it will give your gut a chance to heal and an opportunity to reset.

I'm not sure but recalling Pirouette's thread, I think fasting for infections usually requires a very long water only fast.. she ended up going 30+ days:

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4175117#gsc.tab=0

I tried a 5 day water only fast after a bit of studying and I don't know that it helped me much long term (never really had gut issues). During the fast I had some issues with low blood pressure and low hr that may or may not have been related to my electrolyte intake.

I will check my notes and see if I can provide anything more helpful.
Posted 3/13/2021 2:22 PM (GMT 0)
From what I have read and heard in various webinars, fasting is excellent for neuropathy, inflammation in general, and allowing the gut to heal. It starves parasites and candida quickly, but I don't know about other infections. I echo dcd's advice about electrolytes, but otherwise the advice I most often hear is to discontinue supplements during fasting, if possible, as they take your body out of a fasting state. I'm sure this applies to some supplements more than others, and of course some herbs or meds cannot be stopped for days, but maybe there's a list somewhere? Seems like a shame to go through a multi-day water fast if meds/supps you can't pause could negate the effects.

I took notes during a fasting summit, which I'd be happy to post here. I'll edit them for clarity in a bit.
Posted 3/13/2021 2:39 PM (GMT 0)
Walking, you can try cistus tea wish can heal GI, fight candida, fight infection, remove biofilms and reduce urinary infections and inflammation. It reduces inflammation in the urinary tract too. It must be taken in am empty stomach because it also has anti-inflammatory properties. It has no caffeine and it can even relax the GI and urinary tissues. I take it regularly and so many users.

Traveler had also GI and stomach issues and felt much better after trying cistus. It fiights GI bug, even Helicobacter Pylory .It also made Traveler herx, just search on the forum for the Traveller posts about Cistus Incanus Tea.

In terms of urinary infection and inflammation it is a two in one help.

Here is a study done to access cistus extract effects on infections, urinary infections. The study was published last year 2020:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc7399921/

Quote important for you:

This study has assessed the antimicrobial potential of the CC and CS aqueous extracts, using disc-diffusion and broth microdilution assays, targeting the opportunistic pathogens that are commonly associated with food poisoning as well as urinary, respiratory tract, blood stream, and wound infections in humans.

To our knowledge, this work marks the first study of the phenolic components from aqueous extracts (tea) of two Croatian Cistus species: C. criticus and C. salviifolius. In summary, the results of this study of two Cistus species from Croatia reveal that both extracts possess prominent antioxidant, antimicrobial, and antiproliferative potential. Preliminary results of cytotoxic activity were obtained and future works have to be done to confirm the safety of these extracts.

It also works for inflammation on the body, urinary inflammations too. The water or tea extracts mainly

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/s0254629917304131#bbb0040

"Traditional medicine has used Cistus species for treating many pathological conditions among them inflammatory disorders (Bammi and Douira, 2002, Attaguile et al., 2004, Lahsissene et al., 2009, Barrajón-Catalán et al., 2011, Benkhnigue et al., 2016).


Hope it helps you, it is backed up by science not just from anecdotal evidence.
Posted 3/13/2021 3:18 PM (GMT 0)
Here's the first set of notes:

Presentation by Valter Longo - "Fasting Mimicking Diet" - Fasting Summit
(Researcher to whose work other presenters refer.)

Time-restricted feeding is different from fasting.
Fasting causes a change in glycogen reserves in the liver, which doesn't happen for a couple of days, so less than 24 hours doesn't count as a fast.
One day of not eating qualifies as fasting.
12-hour time-restricted feeding is fine, but should not be any less, ever.
16-hour fasting is not great because it increases gallstone issues and elevates cardio risks.
When fasting, the body breaks down damaged tissues first, so then when you eat again resources are sent to rebuild the damaged parts.
Train fuel analogy: A train is running out of fuel but needs to make it to the next station, so the conductor breaks down damaged furniture and garbage first to burn as fuel. Your body does the same thing, breaking down damaged tissues first and protecting the healthiest tissues as long as possible.
2-3 days of fasting necessary before you start breaking down intracellular components. (The main benefits of fasting do not occur in intermittent fasting!)
Fasting Mimicking Diet - developed by Roy Walford - Restricting calories by 25% long-term prevents diabetes or cancer successfully, but longevity is the same.
Five days of low-starch, high-fat, low-protein, low-calorie diet tricks the body into thinking you are fasting. Do it each month or every few months. 30,000 people did this for a study, no serious risks.
Body adapts by slowing down metabolism in a long-term fast, and it stays lower (which is why calorie restriction isn't a good plan for weight loss).
Vegan + fish is the best diet.
Posted 3/13/2021 3:23 PM (GMT 0)
More notes:

Joel Fuhrman - "Fasting for Health and Healing"

Optimal nutrition, nothing toxic.
American diet is 55% processed food and 33% animal products.
Asthma, allergies, autoimmune disorders (including colitis) reduce or go away with fasting.
Not appropriate for people who have not proven they can stick to a healthy diet.
Fasting strips the body of nutrients, increases absorption, important to replenish with high-quality food.
Not safe for people with kidney and liver issues.
Patient had severe lupus with a need for kidney transplant, and she recovered completely. But that's dicey.
Digestive impairments and bowel inflammation benefit from fasting as long as they are getting good nutrition the rest of the time.
Before fasting - multiple books about this.
Eating processed food and carbs cause all the problems that kill people. (Not controversial.)
IGF1 needs to be as low as possible, and animal protein raises it.
People should be "nutritarian."
Juice fasting removes proteinaceous antigens, allowing autoimmune disease to calm down.
Even type 1 diabetic patients are getting off insulin through diet.
Heated oil is carcinogenic and teratogenic. (Yikes.)
10% calories or fewer should come from animal products.
IGF1 should be below 120 and won't be if you eat more animal products.
Nuts, seeds, beans, greens, vegetables.
Nuts and seeds in the same meal as greens as other veg aids absorption (need the fats to absorb the nutrients from the greens).
Chinese pine nuts (the ones that taper) are 13% protein but Mediterranean (symmetrical) are 30% protein.
We "get" protein from eating fibrous greens because they slough off intestinal lining cells and bacteria that are reabsorbed. (!)
Raw greens, beans, raw onions, mushrooms - good for the microbiome.
Coats the villi.
GBOMBS - greens, beans, onions, mushrooms, berries, seeds - are what you should be eating.
Heightened detox at the beginning of fasting.
Glutathione falls in day 3 and detox slows.
No Tylenol (liver can't detox when fasting).
Get rid of toxins before fasting as much as possible.
Feel like crap at first because things being burned off can contain a lot of toxins.
Posted 3/13/2021 3:28 PM (GMT 0)
More notes. (I have many more, but the ones I have posted are from the doctors who seemed most legit. Folks at the True North health center really seem to know their stuff about fasting.)

Alan Goldhamer - "Fasting Mechanisms"
(Doctor at True North Health Center)

Dopamine is increased by chemicals added to processed foods, leading to widespread illness.
Book: The Pleasure Trap
Fasting reverses this dynamic.
Mainstream doctors are comfortable with you being sick forever, on drugs forever.
Each point reduction in blood pressure reduces overall mortality by 1%.
"Plant-based diet free of sugar, oil, and salt."
Fasting produced stronger results for treating hypertension than anything else, by quite a large margin, according to extensive studies
Phases of fasting - 1. GI (6 hrs), 2. glycogenolysis (24-48 hrs), 3. gluconeogenesis (minimized after 2 weeks), 4. ketosis (from 72 hrs on)
After 2 weeks, most energy is derived from the metabolism of ketone bodies, even in the brain.
Fasting accelerates detox, so smokers don't crave anything after 2-3 days.
Testing to do beforehand: lipids, electrolytes, kidney function, glucose, liver enzymes, total albumin and protein, urinalysis, CMP, CBC.
Effects experienced early on: Bad taste in mouth, odd body odor, fatigue, sleep disturbance, vivid dreams, restlessness, irritability, orthostatic hypotension, aches, pain, rashes, discharges, nausea, heightened senses, healing crisis.
Naturesis - body eliminates salt more quickly when fasting. Blood volume goes down along with swelling and inflammation. (Watch out for this.)
Weight loss - about a pound per day, but chiefly water.
Detoxification - exotoxins and endotoxins.
Autophagy - enhanced during fasting.
Apoptosis (programmed cell death).
Stem cells that become the immune system (hemocytoblast).
Cancer cells are more vulnerable when the person is being treated while fasting. (Healthy cells are protected during fasting.)
Mitochondrial improvements, antiviral, biofilms, bHB (brain fuel).
Reprogramming metabolic stress resistance pathways.
Enzymatic induction.
BDNF - protects against brain deterioration (e.g. Alzheimer's) - increased by only two things as far as we know: fasting and exercise. Also regulates cardiovascular response.
Corrects gut leakage.
Normalizes sympathetic tone, reboots autonomic nervous system.
Tool used by all cultures and religions for spiritual and psychological health.
Immune system enhanced during fasting.
Decreases glucose, BP, heart rate, insulin, inflammation, oxidation, microbial load, IGF-1.
Increases leptin, insulin sensitivity, cellular stress resistance and adaptation, autophagy, B-cell immunity.
Normalizes microbiota.
Reverses all metabolic syndrome abnormalities.
Posted 3/13/2021 4:07 PM (GMT 0)
OMG!!! You guys are incredible!! Amazing information. Thank you from the bottom of my ❤️.

IsitLyme,

I saw Trav’s post about cistus this morning when I was searching old fasting posts. Can you tell me what cistus tea you buy and instructions on how you prepare it and take it? I just ordered some knotweed from 1st Chinese, and I think I ordered one of those metal tea balls, too, to get free shipping. I think I have some little bags, too. Any details on that would be very helpful. Also, does cistus hurt good bacteria and yeast?

Sara,
Your notes are fabulous!! Thank you😊

Dcd,
Thank you for the electrolyte tip. I looked it up. It does have Stevia in it. Most conventional electrolyte products have sugar. Is some type of glucose necessary for balanced electrolytes? Seems like any type of sweetener, though, would keep the body in a digestive state. What effect does Stevia have as far as that is concerned? I am thinking a water fast over 3 days is necessary to shut down the digestive system. Do electrolytes interfere with the shutting down?
Posted 3/13/2021 4:14 PM (GMT 0)
Stevia is zero carbs. It may have a minuscule digestive component to it? You’re prob right, maybe best to avoid. Electrolytes themselves don’t interfere w the autophagy of fasting and are necessary.

This is my naturopaths recipe for home made electrolytes.
1/2 tsp baking soda
1/2 tsp Celtic salt
1/2 tsp potassium chloride
2 capsules of Mg epsom salt
1 liter water


I think a couple teaspoons epsom
Salt for magnesium and salt water may be enough tho?

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 3/13/2021 9:27:07 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/13/2021 4:27 PM (GMT 0)
Saraeli is correct about the importance of omitting herbs and supplements during a fast. I would also avoid stevia.. not sure exactly why but I think it could trick the body into doing things you don't want it to do.

Here are some of my more relevant fasting notes.. sometimes I recorded references, sometimes not. As with nutritional philosophies, there are different fasting philosophies and I was casting a pretty wide net. I tried to organize but it's still kinda brainstormy so let me know if anything needs clarification:

Electrolytes

Get at minimum 2000 mg-s of sodium a day (1-2 tsp of salt). If you’re physically active or sweat a lot, then aim for 4000-7000 mg-s (2-3 tsp of salt)..

Dorian Wilson's has an informative electrolyte video (youtube). He only takes 1200 mg of sodium on fast days, and 600 on refeed days??

.25 tsp pink salt = 590 mg sodium, has no potassium
.25 tsp Celtic sea salt = 458 mg sodium
2 capfuls of bodybio-elyte = 178 mg of sodium

Aim for 3,800 mg of potassium daily which = 7g of potassium chloride

350 mg max of magnesium daily.. 6 capfuls of bodybio e-lyte= 390 mg.. do 5 of those a day

Monitor color of urine to determine proper hydration

Pre-fast

Insulin spikes bring down ketone production.. the more carbs in a meal, the longer til fat will be burned so your last meal before a fast should be mostly fat and protein.. this should help the transition to ketosis making the first couple of days easier -Dorian Wilson
*Saw a commenter somewhere say they add mct oil to black coffee for the first 2 days of fast.. could be helpful and perhaps not affect autophagy too much...
The trunorth vegan guys say only fruits and veggies for the 3 days before a fast (might be more unpleasant tho)

Fast

Dorian Wilson- tea and coffee are ok because it is unlikely that they affect insulin, cites a study on green tea mimicking the effects of dietary restriction to induce autophagy... and a study on coffee inducing autophagy in mice. Coffee could irritate the digestive tract though.. maybe best to avoid it particularly on the last day or 2 before breaking fast.. just beware: caffeine withdrawal could make fasting unnecessarily difficult.

Increase in norepinephrine might mean you sleep less.. cortisol also increases during fast

Sleep is very important for autophagy!

Grehlin, the hunger hormone continues to spike at meal time, but each spike is lower as fast continues.. Some say if you start to feel hungry again late in a fast, then that is a signal that your body is done it's work and you should break the fast.. "True hunger is a sensation in the mouth and throat, similar to thirst, and not a gnawing pain in the stomach. The way it will get your attention is that comes after many days of experiencing no hunger. Seemingly out of the blue, you'll have an intense desire for food."

I read this as encouragement each day: https://drpompa.com/fasting/fasting-for-purpose-five-day-water-fast/

Breaking fast

5 day fast should have a transition period of 2.5 days
https://drjockers.com/extended-fasting

Cut electrolytes to reduce fluid retention

Apple cider vinegar will stimulate the digestive tract and help you to feel full after first small (500 cal) meal.
Siim Land: Before eating have this as a tea:
*2 tbsp of raw apple cider vinegar
1 half of lemon squeezed (citric acid from promotes the creation of digestive enzymes)
1 pinch of cinnamon for better blood sugar stabilization
1 pinch of sea salt
*I used just a half tbsp of acv- 2 tbsp seems like too much

When breaking a fast, begin with frequent small meals, every 2 hours or so, progressing gradually toward larger meals with more time in between them until you reach a "normal" eating routine.

Chew foods well. This will help immensely with proper digestion and is a good habit to foster.

Peter Attia doesn't seem too concerned about the types of food for refeeding, but does emphasize going slow due to stomach shrinkage

Strive to add live enzymes and good bacteria to your system. Fresh, raw foods are full of living enzymes good for your body and digestion.

500 calories for the first meal maybe for entire day, definitely no more than 1500 for first day and probably second day too

Begin with:
vegetable/bone broths, miso
Sauerkraut juice, kombucha
fruit and vegetable juices (mostly veg)
May want to go a whole day w just the above, or begin to include:
raw fruits that are low in sugar, low in soluble fiber (but high in insoluble), low glycemic and non-starchy.. cukes are good, green apples (chew skin well), berries, tomato
Sauerkraut, other fermented veggies

Next (perhaps on second day):
coffee might be good to get the bowels moving (if I haven't already been drinking it), also the diuretic effect might be of benefit
yogurt or other living, cultured milk products.. unsweetened of course (goat milk yogurt has a lot of MCTs, good if still in ketosis),
lettuces and spinach, sprouts (can use plain yogurt as a dressing and top with fresh fruit).. chew well!
sauerkraut
cooked vegetables (non-starchy) and vegetable soups

Smoothies (drink slowly), raw vegetables (chew well), avacado (but only 1/4 to 1/2 a sitting), up to 1 tsp of olive oil in a sitting (trying not to overwhelm the liver w fats)

Then:
well cooked grains and beans, potatoes
nuts and eggs
milk products (non-cultured)

Finally:
meats, breads and anything else

Any gastrointestinal distress might indicate need to limit fodmaps more the next time I break a fast

Pay close attention to body's reactions to these "new" foods. Watch for any adverse reactions, perhaps signalling a mild allergy or that you have gone too far, too quickly. Feel for the sensation of fullness and stop eating at that point. Begin to train yourself to watch for that signal...

Training in the days (weeks?) before next fast:

From pirouette's post.. she ate low glycemic foods, implemented a time restricted eating schedule, tracked ketones...

Try 16:8 time restricted feeding on the regular with bulletproof coffee as breakfast... 18:6 is optimal according to Siim Land.. do that for at least a couple weeks before next long fast.. use mct oil to aid in fat adaption: "Compared with coconut oil, MCT oil is better for ketone production and maintaining ketosis"...it gets converted quicker... "One study in humans found that caprylic acid was three times more ketogenic than capric acid, and about six times more ketogenic than lauric acid"

Lauric acid (coconut oil) suppresses grehlin..

Post Edited (potsnpans) : 3/13/2021 7:15:27 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/13/2021 4:37 PM (GMT 0)
Walking, search for organic and for chopped leaves and flowers type. Being chopped the medicinal properties are much more available.

The most known brand in the US is from biopure, but its a little expensive. There are many other brands, more affordable, you just need to make sure the leaves and flowers are chopped and organic.

I buy mine from Amazon on Germany, since i am europe. but you could send an e-mail to traveller and ask where did she bought hers.

Just let the tea boil at least for 10 minutes.
Cistus tea could be all you need. You need to be patient. Take it 30 minutes before meals on empty stomach. Start with one cup of tea. Use 3 table spoons for 1 liter of water or half a tea spoon in one cup.

You can store the rest on the fridge for 2 days. The taste is not the best, but that is not important, what matters its the effect. Dont add sugar or sweet, its better to take it the natural way, because its the way, science is testing and finding the positive effects and web dont want to change that. Dont hesitate to make more questions that i will help you more on this.

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 3/13/2021 6:00:57 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/13/2021 4:52 PM (GMT 0)
More info in how to prepare here:

https://dancemeditation.org/2020/07/recipe-winter-tea/

Almost forgot, bacteria can always be affected, so just take your usual probiotics 2 hours apart. Ah! Also, i take bio-kult probiotics, they have 14 strains on each capsule, its a studied probiotic brand. You can search for it too to see if its available in the US.
Posted 3/13/2021 6:05 PM (GMT 0)
its an interesting topic and i might try it at some point at least for 4-5 days

Buhner has a book on it by the way - has good reviews - his stuff is usually v well researched - worth a look

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fasting-Path-Spiritual-Emotional-Enlightenment/dp/1583331700
Posted 3/13/2021 10:12 PM (GMT 0)
One thing I noticed, which it may help to know, is that hours 18-36 are usually the roughest. I've done multiple 3 day fasts and one 5 day fast, and I always hit the rough patch around the 18hr mark. Headache, hunger, insomnia. Usually passes by the 36hr mark, sometimes 48hr, and then its smooth sailing...
Posted 3/13/2021 10:22 PM (GMT 0)
i think it will be way easier to do from a start point of Keto also - because in fasting you will burn exclusively fat - and if you are keto-adapted you are already doing that.

when i ate a carb-based diet - I functioned well but if I didn't eat every 4 hrs I would get the shakes and feel rough. now I can go 12 hours in the day without food and hardly notice.
Posted 3/14/2021 1:06 AM (GMT 0)
I agree with Garzie, full fasting would be to hard on our already fragile health, Keto would be more reasonable. Also Gluten-free diet and avoiding sugar too, but dont stop eating healthy food to get nutrients
Posted 3/14/2021 1:17 AM (GMT 0)
Oh 100% it’s easier from keto...the one time I did a fast on keto I didn’t get the rough patch from hours 18-36
Posted 3/14/2021 8:35 PM (GMT 0)
Walking, if you do get the chopped parts of Cistus/rockrose, dont forget to use a coffee filter to filter the small bits of tea that are loose on the tea water. I use it always so i can drink it without bits of tea flowing around.
Posted 3/15/2021 1:40 PM (GMT 0)
My sister-in-law just did a 10 day fast with Lemon, Maple syrup, and Cayenne. If I recall correctly, she said the first and last days were the hardest.
Posted 3/16/2021 3:16 AM (GMT 0)
1000Daisies,

What brand of cistus tea did you get?
Posted 3/19/2021 3:04 AM (GMT 0)
Walking, can you check this one:

I found this to be the most affordable and with 500g of cistus loose tea inside it.
Organic Cistus Incanus Czystek Albanian. Just check it below on Amazon and check the reviews below to help you see, hope it helps, i hope i can post this, i am not advertising nothing, i just went to amazon and made a search for cistus incanus rock rose loose tea.

https://www.amazon.com/organic-cistus-incanus-czystek-albanian/dp/b0893sd3bv/ref=pd_sbs_2?pd_rd_w=fruku&pf_rd_p=527ea27c-adf6-4b67-9c5f-265eb29e0622&pf_rd_r=fqbdnrzyr6smj8m95y1m&pd_rd_r=32035b5c-b582-47dd-99ca-53a5463dcf86&pd_rd_wg=zn9kw&pd_rd_i=b0893sd3bv&psc=1

Here is also more brands with diffrente prices, see what is the most affordable for you, in this list the above brand is included:

https://romanceuniversity.org/cistus-incanus-tea-organic/
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