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Candida and recent Verification of Bartonella and Borrelia, and New Question Mark on Autoimmune

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Posted 10/15/2021 1:14 AM (GMT 0)
For the last couple of months, I have been working on lowering candida through diet, monolaurin and, more recent, olive leaf extract.

With the new Igenex verification of Bart and Lyme, I am thrown on what to do. Even more confusing information came in today with blood tests showing my C3 and C4 complements are both low again, which could indicate autoimmune. If just one were low, C3 I think, that would make sense as it indicates infection.

Also, monocyte concentration was higher than it's ever been, and lymphocytes are low. CRP and sed rate look good, and in early July was negative.

So all that seems to make a quagmire to work through. I thought the positive Bart test would explain the neuropathy in my feet, which is bothersome. Wanted to treat iin some way. Now, the rheumy wants me to have a lip biopsy done for Sjogrens. LLMD wants me to try Rawls Vital Plan, but I did that a few years ago to no avail, and a lot of what is in the mixes conflict with kidney problems.

Good news is I'm not freaking out like I usually do as I've worked to change my way of thinking and deal with whatever comes this way. But with today's test results, absolutely have no clue which way to go.

ANY ideas or thoughts are appreciated.
Posted 10/15/2021 1:29 AM (GMT 0)
What’s the treatment for autoimmune besides steroids?

If you had 100% assurance that you had an autoimmune illness with a medical name, how would that affect your treatment direction?
Posted 10/15/2021 2:08 AM (GMT 0)
WBF - Exactly. That is part of the potential problem(s) with figuring out what to do.

Steroids are out, so it seems diet and maybe LDN would be potential next move IF autoimmune is involved. I can’t find much else that would cause low c3 and c4.

Then there is neuropathy and whether autoimmune or Bartonella/Lyme is causing it. Garzie, dcd and I have had many conversations about this. Just when it looked like Bart was the answer, then another question mark.

The complements are the only positive autoimmune tests I’ve ever had.
Posted 10/15/2021 2:21 AM (GMT 0)
Any reason why you couldn’t use diet and LDN and also treat bartonella/brucella, Lyme, and EBV?
Posted 10/15/2021 2:26 AM (GMT 0)
I wouldn’t be surprised if bartonella causes Sjogren’s type symptoms. I had that when I was at my worst. I had some antibodies for that and RF Factor, but they were well below the positive range.

It went away after I left my parents’ house and started detoxing mold. I have had recurrence of extreme dry eyes and mouth at times during the years since, but it’s always been brief and due to herxing or mold toxicity.
Posted 10/15/2021 2:30 AM (GMT 0)
Running Wild,

Do you know what the cause of your kidney issues is?

How do you know or determine what treatments are safe for your kidneys?

Isn’t the kidney issue the reason you got that rife machine? Did you ever get the help you needed to make it beneficial for you? Are you interested in trying it again?
Posted 10/15/2021 10:01 AM (GMT 0)
some great input from WBF here i think RW

bart is know for triggering auto-immune conditions - and auto-immune like conditions - which may clear up after successful treatment - so i would say its not necessary to think in terms of Bart or Autoimmune - but more likely in fact Bart - leading to auto-immune - the positive bart test you had is highly specific - v low chance of false positive

all auto-immunity has a trigger or a perpetuator - there are only a few that never seem to turn around - usually because all the cells targeted are gone and or the immune response to the cells seems to become truly stuck - like type 1 diabetes where the pancreatic cells seem especially vulnerable and the immune response very determine - most of the infection driven stuff can be reversed i think.

i would not be too hung up on C3, C4 - immune dysregulation as a determinant of anything other than immune dysfunction - which we already know you have - as do we all

the best way to look at this - is what's called variable host response phenomenon - basically when you put a nasty bunch of bugs into a human host - each host responds in many and varied different ways - such that if you put the same cocktail of bugs into 10 different people - you would get 10 different symptom patterns - because each host and each immune system is different - bartonella and lyme like organisms are both famous for this.

on the auto-immune element - so far all autoimmune diseases studied seem to have hyper permeable gut membrane involved - so gut dysfunction seems to be involved in them all as a common feature

i would second the approach of diet and LDN to help the body recover its balance
it may take experimentation to find what works best - but i would consider keto wholefood a sensible first step - i am sure its possible even with kidney issues - low fibre GAPS diets might be worth exploring if this does not bring enough positive results ( i notice lower fibre as well as low carb seems to help all my symptoms )

there are way fewer downsides to this approach than any other direct auto-immune treatment that i know of - doesn't need to cost more than current diet - and LDN is also cheap - no immuno suppressive drugs

due to your kidney issues i think it would be worth finding a nutritional practitioner who works with auto-immune and GAPS diets - i dont know of any - other than Mary Ruddick - who dcd used - she says she has around 40 diet variations she uses depending on the client specific situations - and she works with some pretty sick and complex cases

well done on getting your head around the mental aspects of facing the challenge with positive outlook - that is massive and will surely help you immensely

i really feel you are now coming of the fog and onto a track that will see you make progress - there will no doubt be challenges ahead - and some unexpected bumps in the road as we all have - but the trajectory is going to be upwards.
Posted 10/15/2021 12:21 PM (GMT 0)
RW, my thoughts align pretty closely w Garzies. I’m pretty skeptical and worry about false positive at some of these smaller labs, but the fact that you had so many markers turn up, AND that they seemed to echo positives for less common infections the other labs found, like TBRF, makes me think you’ve got some sort of infection going on.

In addition, the recurring fevers I remember you getting could have been due to TBRF. That infection could be behind the bouts of reactive arthritis I suspected you having. I’ve changed my tune a bit after seeing this latest data, need to go where the information leads.

All of that being said, it doesn’t mean you don’t have something autoimmune going on. In fact, w that many infections, id be surprised if you didn’t. Like garzie said, infections drive the immune system nuts, and autoimmunity can reverse when they’re remedied. I would get the lip biopsy. It’s pretty definitive and would answer some questions you’ve wondered about. Other things can cause dry eyes tho, it’s an autonomic, non-specific symptom even tho rheumies don’t seem to recognize that, they are single minded. But I do think it’s important to test as you have this strange kidney issue and you want to figure out why.


In addition, I believe like garzie said, that autoimmunity goes hand in hand w a porous gut membrane. You likely have leaky gut and many food sensitivities that you may not even recognize. This leaky gut is something I know I have and have been tryin to reverse. Diet is a must. You can really lower inflammation pretty quickly.

You’ve got a lot going on, but also a lot of new leads to work with right now and new avenues to explore. I’m rooting for you my friend!

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 10/15/2021 6:41:03 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/15/2021 2:30 PM (GMT 0)
"c3 and c4" ...hmm, Ive never did those versions............usually C3a and C4a are tested.

My C4a was 55,000 with candida. Went normal after treating candida to 1,400, while still having two elevated thyroid antibodies. This was all at the very last month of my lyme ABX, just a year before my strict , tested diet, thus the thyroid AB's were still raging.

Post Edited (astroman) : 10/15/2021 8:34:11 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/15/2021 4:45 PM (GMT 0)
All your responses are appreciated and loaded with great thoughts and information.

WBF - The concern I have treating the Bart and Borrelia is using the killing of bacteria while I keep trying to get rid of the candida. I have renewed my goal of making better use of the rife machine for some of the issues. That rife machine makes me feel like an idiot. As far as kidneys, no doctor, including 3 nephrologists, have been able to determine what happened as they have remained about the same for 8 years or more. I've even had a kidney biopsy, which ruled out a lot, including autoimmune.

My best guess is it may have happened in 2013 when I was put on IV rocephin and had a horrendous reaction to it - started trembling and shaking, fever went up to 105.8 and it lasted for almost an hour. It was a struggle to hold the phone and dial to get someone to come over. Then I tried it again the next day and similar reaction occurred, just temperature only went to 104.2, shaking wasn't quite as bad, and it only lasted about 30 minutes. And I hope your mold issues have improved as your struggle with that has been bad. When I see mold anywhere, I think of you. My hope is whenever I don't see mold I'll think of you smile

Garzie - Great insight, as usual. We have discussed a lot of this before, and that helped. I'm trying not to get hung up on the complements, and my head is doing better there. I would think, as you mentioned, the Bart or even Lyme could send the immune process to go crazy. Would make sense. And I did try to contact Mary Ruddick a couple of weeks ago but never heard back. I'll try again. Want to treat the infections but wondering how to do so without adding to candida. And please let me know how your recovery is going.

dcd - I'm with you in having Igenex come up with the same results as R.E.D. Labs. That seems to solidify its results. The chances of Igenex having same results with so many variations of Borrelia is small. Your points on diet are well taken. I'm going to try to contact Mary Ruddick again as. mentioned above, did not hear back from sending request for information right after the first time you suggested it. I try on diet, but struggle keeping what weight I have left if I cut out too much.

Your updates on Spero are interesting, and it appears your attitude is good with it all. I do not regret going to Biologix, even though I still have problems. I learned a lot there, and the people are very caring, as you mentioned about Spero. Pulling for you.

astroman - How long did it take to get candida under control for you? I believe you have mentioned it before, but I can't remember right now. As far as complements, with c3 and c4, autoimmune is always mentioned when they are decreased, but I have read they can be decreased in chronic infection - " Compliment levels are typically decreased when there is an acute or chronic condition that may be due to an infection, disease, or even a hereditary condition."

It throws me how the "a" tests are different, but I seem to hear them mentioned with chronic Lyme.
Posted 10/15/2021 5:23 PM (GMT 0)
sounds like you are on the right track to me now RW

my feeling is that Mary is an unusual character - no surprise after what she has been through - but i also think she travels a lot and has an unconventional lifestyle - but i would persevere in making contact as she seems to be someone who has worked with many people with complex issues that will have caused her to use v specific diets - there will not be many like her around - so worth the effort - even if she is a bit odd / hard to get a hold of, i would say.

i think diet is an important level to pull on - but i don't think that in itself is the answer on its own - just a part of the puzzle that should help your system get stronger - i am gaining weight with zero carbs - fats are your friend smile hard to get your head around if you have been into sports nutrition at any point - but its what's working for me.

ref candida - on a low carb diet you would have removed its main source of food - so should be considerably easier to treat - many llmd's use nystatin in their abx combos to guard against candida overgrowth
nystatin is not absorbed so should not be an issue for your kidneys?

I'm good - have bounced back from whatever knock me down for a few weeks - and am now at the best i have been since getting ill - last night i did more reps in my workout than any since starting the methylene blue - and progress is continuing - slowly but surely.

My partner on the other hand is, unfortunately, mad as a box of frogs - the separation is proving difficult. i offered to settle without going to court yesterday and today she is angrier and more bitter than ever - she blames me, rather than a random illness, for her losing the life she feels she deserved - and the anger and resentment this generates is amazing. Her family, who seemed like genuine decent people, now seems to be encouraging her!

i cant help thinking that this is some kind of mental health condition brought on by the lyme and bart - i have tried to help all i can but its out of my hands now.
Posted 10/15/2021 5:38 PM (GMT 0)
Agreed re: Candida. Mary says you fix the diet, which fixes the microbiome, which fixes the Candida. No need to treat. The reason it’s able to overgrow is because of a weakness in the microbiome

As mentioned. I was working w her 1 on 1 in 2020. Then she took a sabbatical to travel across blue zones and Africa studying what makes these people so resistant to chronic illness. On this trip it’s my understanding that she love studying this stuff so much that she wants to take more time to write and research. So she moved her 1 v 1s to a group zoom session. It’s not ideal, but it saves her time. Anyone who is good today they seem to eventually end up writing and publishing and moving away from clinical practice, at least she’s trying to still provide the people who depend on her with a format for direct help. I have a feeling her sessions have really filled up, but i suspect the reason you didn’t hear back is because her secretary is just not on top of things. When I’ve emailed her urgent questions I get a response back in a week. When I was working w Mary directly it wasn’t like that. Anyway try again, I hope you get a response this time
Posted 10/15/2021 6:40 PM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...
Agreed re: Candida. Mary says you fix the diet, which fixes the microbiome, which fixes the Candida. No need to treat. The reason it’s able to overgrow is because of a weakness in the microbiome

As mentioned. I was working w her 1 on 1 in 2020. Then she took a sabbatical to travel across blue zones and Africa studying what makes these people so resistant to chronic illness. On this trip it’s my understanding that she love studying this stuff so much that she wants to take more time to write and research. So she moved her 1 v 1s to a group zoom session. It’s not ideal, but it saves her time. Anyone who is good today they seem to eventually end up writing and publishing and moving away from clinical practice, at least she’s trying to still provide the people who depend on her with a format for direct help. I have a feeling her sessions have really filled up, but i suspect the reason you didn’t hear back is because her secretary is just not on top of things. When I’ve emailed her urgent questions I get a response back in a week. When I was working w Mary directly it wasn’t like that. Anyway try again, I hope you get a response this time

The blue zones website is super interesting. It's insane that the common denominators that they see in these blue zones is essentially the exact opposite of how western society is set up. I remember watching a short documentary about a group living in "developing" conditions. I wish I could remember where they were from. They walked something like 15 miles everyday simply performing daily tasks. Their diet was plant based, and they lived in a small community of people. Again, it's been awhile since I I watched this, but I remember they didn't even have words (in their language) for some of the most common chronic illnesses in the west.

Post Edited (Lymie24) : 10/15/2021 12:45:44 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/15/2021 6:52 PM (GMT 0)
"How long did it take to get candida under control for you?"

about three months the last time..

I tested pos for it the last three times I felt I had it. Each time it was tougher to eradicate and I took more potent actions against it. Diflucon (spelling?) was the final and successful try the last two times, as Nystatin was no longer effective.

Prior to the above , I used the popular herbs/supps for it, and symptoms eventually went away.

Per the learned symptoms/feel, I prob had it many times before in the distant past..
Posted 10/15/2021 6:54 PM (GMT 0)
I figured that at this point, schedule might be overwhelming for her, but good for her. And am glad you found her in time to help you, dcd. I'll try again and see what happens. Am also looking into healthy fats, again, to see which I can use. For instance, have to use avocados sparingly because of high potassium content. I'm just real careful with the kidneys, which really puts a stop into so many ways to treat or get better.

Glad you are better, Garzie. That is great news. I looked into using methylene blue, but it is advised not to use it with kidney disease. Real pisser. But I'll go back, at least. using oral nystatin. Going to ask ENT at an appointment Tuesday to scope throat to look at status of candida there.

Sorry to hear about your partner. I went through a very ugly divorce when I was at my sickest (pre-Lyme diagnosis). It's not a lot of fun, and I hope you go through it without a lot of emotional stress you don't need with what you're dealing with. The funny part was I became a lot better for about 5 years after the divorce. Still wasn't great or even knew I had Lyme. But the stress of her and doing all she could to limit my time with my kids to punish me really took its toll. So best for you in a tough time.
Posted 10/15/2021 7:17 PM (GMT 0)

Lymie24 said...


The blue zones website is super interesting. It's insane that the common denominators that they see in these blue zones is essentially the exact opposite of how western society is set up. I remember watching a short documentary about a group living in "developing" conditions. I wish I could remember where they were from. They walked something like 15 miles everyday simply performing daily tasks. Their diet was plant based, and they lived in a small community of people. Again, it's been awhile since I I watched this, but I remember they didn't even have words (in their language) for some of the most common chronic illnesses in the west.

Yah she goes thru the diet of like every tribe in Africa and how they’re quite varied, but they don’t have illness in an area until western food shows up. She also says some tribes are fertile into their 60s. She says that it’s a myth that blue zones are plant based, actually. The whole point of this podcast is that meat is healthy (if interested can skip first 26 min as it’s not that helpful). She basically cured her autoimmune from mycoplasma w a carnivore. Seems everyone is different tho and responds to different diets, but the common denominator seems to be sugar and hydrogenated fats that are the killers (processed food).

https://carnivoremd.com/the-fascinating-case-of-a-mystery-autoimmune-illness-reversed-with-an-animal-based-diet-with-mary-ruddick-cnc/
Posted 10/15/2021 7:32 PM (GMT 0)

astroman said...

Per the learned symptoms/feel, I prob had it [Candida] many times before in the distant past..

Astroman,

Can you describe what symptoms/feel you learned was Candida and how you could differentiate it from SIBO or parasites.
Posted 10/15/2021 8:58 PM (GMT 0)
Both bloat, but candida has more of a stomach bloat feel than lower intestinal.

Candida only: Candida goes up or sometimes originates in the esophagus and or mouth. Your throat can feel weird or full- hard to describe. When oral, candida visual as white oral thrush.

Both make excess gas, SIBO is just way worse and well....gross!!

Food-

- candida loves sugars amnd white carbs.

-SIBO likes FODMAPS which makes perfect sense if you dont digest fodmaps properly and understand that its free food goinig into intestines. Without SIBO my fodmap bloating is very minimal. With SIBO any little fodmap makes me float like a roadkill racoon and puff like a the magic dragon.
Posted 10/15/2021 10:24 PM (GMT 0)
Great question and great answer. Very informative.
Posted 10/17/2021 9:14 PM (GMT 0)
Interesting post someone mentioned keto reversing their kidney disease w screenshots of the labs to prove it. Seemed relevant given our discussions

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ketoautoimmunediseases/permalink/418375709076851/
Posted 10/17/2021 9:19 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks, dcd. Am going to take a look when I get back form the store.

Astroman - Were you able to treat while getting rid of candida? I don't want to treat now, but the borrelia is still destroying what little fat/collagen I have left, so I'd like to try and stop that, or maybe even see some reversal.
Posted 10/19/2021 2:20 PM (GMT 0)

running wild said...
Thanks, dcd. Am going to take a look when I get back form the store.

Astroman - Were you able to treat while getting rid of candida? I don't want to treat now, but the borrelia is still destroying what little fat/collagen I have left, so I'd like to try and stop that, or maybe even see some reversal.

I did take ABX and Diflucan or Nystatin both together. Then just Diflucan after my last ABX run.
Posted 10/19/2021 3:13 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks. While I'd rather not use the abx, with the pretty sure positives on Igenex test, I can't just let that part go. The loss of fat or collagen just wears me out with some frustration.
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